Sunday, August 28, 2022

Some unique lines of Descent from Charlemagne.

 Charlemagne is the ancestor of all European Royalty and a good percentage of people who aren't royals at all.  Thought lines we can't document some thing pretty much all people who's ancestors were in Western Europe in the past 500 years descent from Charlemagne.

I already did a post on Charlemagne's ancestry.  But this also begs the question of who is the most Senior descendent of Charlemagne, who's the theoretical head of this huge family?  UsefulCharts has some videos trying to deduce this through standards that Medieval Europe would have actually used.  But today society is more enlightened on Gender and so we should consider some less Patriarchal standards.  And so that's what I have compiled today.

Gender Neutral Primogeniture Succession from Charlemagne

If you count Bernard of Italy

Charlemagne
Pepin of Italy
Bernard of Italy
Pepin, Count of Vermandois
Herbert I, Count of Vermandois
Beatrice of Vermandois
Hugh the Great
Beatrice of France
Theodoric I, Duke of Upper Lorraine
Frederick II, Duke of Upper Lorraine
Sophie, Countess of Bar
Theodoric I, Count of Montbéliard
Sophie († 1148), married in 1128 to Richard II, Count of Montfaucon
Amadeus II of Montfaucon
Walter of Montbéliard
Eschiva de Montfaucon
John II, Lord of Beirut
Eschive d'Ibelin
Rupen of Montfort
Jeanne of Montfort
Maria of Ibelin
Guy
Hugh

Charlemagne
Pepin of Italy
Bernard of Italy
Pepin, Count of Vermandois
Herbert I, Count of Vermandois
Beatrice of Vermandois
Hugh the Great
Beatrice of France
Theodoric I, Duke of Upper Lorraine
Frederick II, Duke of Upper Lorraine
Sophie, Countess of Bar
Theodoric I, Count of Montbéliard
Sophie († 1148), married in 1128 to Richard II, Count of Montfaucon
Amadeus II of Montfaucon
Walter of Montbéliard
Eschiva de Montfaucon
John II, Lord of Beirut
Eschive d'Ibelin
Hugh IV of Cyprus
James I of Cyprus
Janus, King of Cyprus
Anne de Lusignan
Amadeus IX, Duke of Savoy
Anne of Savoy
Charlotte of Naples
Anne de Laval, Viscountess of Thouars
Louis III de La Trémoille
Claude de La Trémoille
Henri de La Trémoille
Henri Charles de La Trémoille
Charles Belgique Hollande de La Trémoille
Marie Armande de La Trémoille
Marie Hortense Victoire de La Tour d'Auvergne
Jean Bretagne Charles de La Trémoille
Charles Bretagne Marie de La Trémoille
As far as Wikipedia allows me to trace it

If you don't count Bernard of Italy

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Lothair I
Louis II of Italy
Ermengard of Italy
Louis the Blind
Charles-Constantine
Constance of Vienne
Rotbold I, Count of Provence
Rotbold II, Count of Provence
Emma of Provence
Pons, Count of Toulouse
William IV, Count of Toulouse
Philippa, Countess of Toulouse
William X, Duke of Aquitaine
Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
Henry II, Count of Champagne
Alice of Champagne
Mary of Lusignan, Countess of Brienne
Hugh, Count of Brienne
Joanna of Brienne

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Lothair I
Louis II of Italy
Ermengard of Italy
Louis the Blind
Charles-Constantine
Constance of Vienne
Rotbold I, Count of Provence
Rotbold II, Count of Provence
Emma of Provence
Pons, Count of Toulouse
William IV, Count of Toulouse
Philippa, Countess of Toulouse
William X, Duke of Aquitaine
Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
Henry II, Count of Champagne
Alice of Champagne
Isabella of Cyprus
Hugh III of Cyprus
Amalric of Lusignan
John of Poitiers-Lusignan
Leo V of Armenia
Marie of Lusignan

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Lothair I
Louis II of Italy
Ermengard of Italy
Louis the Blind
Charles-Constantine
Constance of Vienne
Rotbold I, Count of Provence
Rotbold II, Count of Provence
Emma of Provence
Pons, Count of Toulouse
William IV, Count of Toulouse
Philippa, Countess of Toulouse
William X, Duke of Aquitaine
Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
Henry II, Count of Champagne
Alice of Champagne
Isabella of Cyprus
Hugh III of Cyprus
Guy, Constable of Cyprus
Hugh IV of Cyprus
From here on it's the same as the Bernard of Italy line

Gender Neutral Primogeniture Succession from Eleanor of Aquitaine's Marriage to Henry II of England.

Eleanor of Aquitaine + Henry II
Matilda of England, Duchess of Saxony
Henry V, Count Palatine of the Rhine
Irmengard of Baden
Herman VI, Margrave of Baden
Agnes of Baden, Duchess of Carinthia
Catherine of Heunburg
Frederick I, Count of Celje
Ulrich I, Count of Celje
William, Count of Celje
Anna of Cilli
Hedwig Jagiellon
As far as I could trace it on Wikipedia.
UsefulCharts also has a video on Matrilineal Descent from Eleanor of Aquitaine.

Gender Neutral Primogeniture Succession from Charles The Bald who inherited France

Charles The Bald
Judith of Flanders
Baldwin II of Flanders
Adalulf Count of Boulogne
Arnulf II of Boulogne
Baldwin II of Boulogne
Eustace I of Boulogne
Eustace II of Boulogne
Eustace III of Boulogne
Matilda of Boulogne
Marie I Countess of Boulogne
Mathilde of Flanders
Margaret of Brabant
Otto II Count of Guelders
Reginald I of Guelders
Reginald II of Guelders
Marie of Guelders
Joanna of Jülich
Maria van Arkel
Arnold of Egmond
Mary of Guelders
James III of Scotland
James IV of Scotland
James V of Scotland
Mary Queen of Scots
James VI of Scotland and I of England
Elizabeth Stuart Queen of Bohemia
Charles I Louis Elector Palatine
Princess Elisabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate
Philippe II Duke of Orléans
Charlotte Aglaé d'Orléans
Maria Teresa Felicitas d'Este
Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon Duchess of Orléans
Louis Philippe I King of The French
Ferdinand Philippe Duke of Orléans
Prince Philippe of Orléans Count of Paris
Princess Hélène of Orléans
Prince Amedeo Duke of Aosta
Princess Margherita of Savoy-Aosta
Archduchess Maria Beatrice Anna Felicitas Zita Charlotte Adelheid Christina Elisabeth Gennara

Charles The Bald
Judith of Flanders
Baldwin II of Flanders
Arnulf I, Count of Flanders
Hildegarde
Arnulf, Count of Holland
Dirk III, Count of Holland
Floris I, Count of Holland
Bertha of Holland
Constance of France, Princess of Antioch
Bohemond II of Antioch
Constance of Antioch
Maria of Antioch
Alexios II Komnenos

Charles The Bald
Judith of Flanders
Baldwin II of Flanders
Arnulf I, Count of Flanders
Hildegarde
Arnulf, Count of Holland
Dirk III, Count of Holland
Floris I, Count of Holland
Bertha of Holland
Constance of France, Princess of Antioch
Bohemond II of Antioch
Constance of Antioch
Bohemond III of Antioch
Raymond IV, Count of Tripoli
Raymond-Roupen
Maria of Antioch-Armenia
Humphrey of Montfort
Rupen of Montfort
Jeanne of Montfort

Eventually this too arguably converges on Hugh IV of Cyprus

Female Preference Primogeniture Succession from Charlemagne just for the fun of it

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Judith of Friuli
Gisela (mother of Regelinda)
Regelinda of Zürich
Bertha of Swabia
Adelaide of Italy
Emma of Italy
Louis V of France

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Judith of Friuli
Gisela (mother of Regelinda)
Regelinda of Zürich
Bertha of Swabia
Adelaide of Italy
Matilda, Abbess of Quedlinburg

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Judith of Friuli
Gisela (mother of Regelinda)
Regelinda of Zürich
Bertha of Swabia
Adelaide of Italy
Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor
Adelaide I, Abbess of Quedlinburg & Sophia I, Abbess of Gandersheim

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Judith of Friuli
Gisela (mother of Regelinda)
Regelinda of Zürich
Bertha of Swabia
Adelaide of Italy
Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor
Matilda of Germany, Countess Palatine of Lotharingia
Richeza of Lotharingia
Richeza of Poland, Queen of Hungary
Sophia of Hungary
Richardis of Carniola
Otto III (d. after 15 December 1130), Eckhard III (d. after 11 July 1183), Bernard II (d. c. 1135), unnamed son

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Judith of Friuli
Gisela (mother of Regelinda)
Regelinda of Zürich
Bertha of Swabia
Adelaide of Italy
Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor
Matilda of Germany, Countess Palatine of Lotharingia
Richeza of Lotharingia
Richeza of Poland, Queen of Hungary
Sophia of Hungary
Wulfhilde of Saxony
Sophia of Bavaria
Ottokar III of Styria

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Judith of Friuli
Gisela (mother of Regelinda)
Regelinda of Zürich
Bertha of Swabia
Adelaide of Italy
Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor
Matilda of Germany, Countess Palatine of Lotharingia
Richeza of Lotharingia
Richeza of Poland, Queen of Hungary
Sophia of Hungary
Wulfhilde of Saxony
Judith of Bavaria, Duchess of Swabia
Bertha, Duchess of Lorraine
Alice of Lorraine
Odo III, Duke of Burgundy
Hugh IV, Duke of Burgundy
Margaret, Lady of Molinot
Marie, Viscountess of Limoges
Guy de Penthièvre
Joan, Duchess of Brittany
Marie of Blois, Duchess of Anjou
Louis II of Anjou
Marie of Anjou
Magdalena of Valois
Catherine of Navarre
Isabel d'Albret of Navarre
René II, Viscount of Rohan
Catherine de Rohan
Countess Palatine Magdalene Catherine of Zweibrücken
Countess Palatine Dorothea Catherine of Birkenfeld-Bischweiler
Countess Anna Catherine of Nassau-Ottweiler
From this point Wikipedia doesn't say one way or the other if any daughters had children

This line is disputed actually but if true it's more senior then the Judith of Friuli lines.
Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Ingeltrude
Hedwig of Babenberg
Henry the Fowler
Hedwig of Saxony
Beatrice of France
Ida of Lorraine
Werner I, Count of Klettgau
Otto II, Count of Habsburg
Werner II, Count of Habsburg
Albert III, Count of Habsburg
Rudolf II, Count of Habsburg
Albert IV, Count of Habsburg
Rudolf I of Germany
Matilda of Habsburg
Agnes of Bavaria, Margravine of Brandenburg
Agnes
Adelaide of Nassau
Ulrich IV, Lord of Hanau
Ulrich V, Lord of Hanau
Elisabeth of Hanau, Countess of Hohenlohe
Elisabeth wife of Louis V, Lord of Lichtenberg and Hugo XIII, Count of Montfort-Rotenfels-Langenargen

Below is a line I first documented from Berengar I of Italy because Gisela's own page didn't mention her daughters
Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Berengar I of Italy
Gisela of Friuli
Berengar II of Italy
Rozala of Italy
Baldwin IV, Count of Flanders
Judith of Flanders
Henry IX, Duke of Bavaria
Judith of Bavaria, Duchess of Swabia
Bertha, Duchess of Lorraine
Alice of Lorraine
Odo III, Duke of Burgundy
Hugh IV, Duke of Burgundy
Margaret, Lady of Molinot
Marie, Viscountess of Limoges
Guy de Penthièvre
Joan, Duchess of Brittany
Marie of Blois, Duchess of Anjou
Louis II of Anjou
Marie of Anjou
Magdalena of Valois
Catherine of Navarre
Isabel d'Albret of Navarre
René II, Viscount of Rohan
Catherine de Rohan
Countess Palatine Magdalene Catherine of Zweibrücken
Countess Palatine Dorothea Catherine of Birkenfeld-Bischweiler
Countess Anna Catherine of Nassau-Ottweiler
From this point Wikipedia doesn't say one way or the other if any daughters had children

Female Only Primogeniture succession from Gisela

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Judith of Friuli
Gisela (mother of Regelinda)
Regelinda of Zürich
Ida of Swabia
Mathilde, Abbess of Essen

Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Gisela
Ingeltrude
Hedwig of Babenberg
Oda of Saxony
Oda of Metz

Female Prefrence Promigenture descent from Eleanor of Aquitaine

Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
Marie of Champagne, Latin Empress of Constantinople
Margaret II, Countess of Flanders
John I, Count of Hainaut
John II, Count of Holland
Mary of Avesnes
Marie de Bourbon, Princess of Achaea
Hugh of Lusignan

Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
Marie of Champagne, Latin Empress of Constantinople
Margaret II, Countess of Flanders
John I, Count of Hainaut
John II, Count of Holland
Mary of Avesnes
Beatrice of Bourbon, Queen of Bohemia
Wenceslaus I, Duke of Luxembourg

Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
Marie of Champagne, Latin Empress of Constantinople
Margaret II, Countess of Flanders
John I, Count of Hainaut
John II, Count of Holland
Mary of Avesnes
Peter I, Duke of Bourbon
Joanna of Bourbon
Charles VI of France
Isabella of Valois
Joan of Valois, Duchess of Alençon

Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
Marie of Champagne, Latin Empress of Constantinople
Margaret II, Countess of Flanders
John I, Count of Hainaut
John II, Count of Holland
Mary of Avesnes
Peter I, Duke of Bourbon
Joanna of Bourbon
Charles VI of France
Joan of France, Duchess of Brittany
Isabella of Brittany
Jeanne de Laval

Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
Marie of Champagne, Latin Empress of Constantinople
Margaret II, Countess of Flanders
John I, Count of Hainaut
John II, Count of Holland
Mary of Avesnes
Peter I, Duke of Bourbon
Joanna of Bourbon
Charles VI of France
Joan of France, Duchess of Brittany
Francis I, Duke of Brittany
Margaret of Brittany

Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
Marie of Champagne, Latin Empress of Constantinople
Margaret II, Countess of Flanders
John I, Count of Hainaut
John II, Count of Holland
Mary of Avesnes
Peter I, Duke of Bourbon
Joanna of Bourbon
Charles VI of France
Joan of France, Duchess of Brittany
Francis I, Duke of Brittany
Marie of Brittany, Viscountess of Rohan
Anne, Viscountess of Rohan
René I, Viscount of Rohan
René II, Viscount of Rohan
Catherine de Rohan
Magdalena Catherine, Countess Palatine of Zweibrücken
Dorothea Catherine of Birkenfeld-Bischweiler
Anna Catherine of Nassau-Ottweiler
Charles, Wild- and Rhinegrave of Salm-Dhaun
John Philip III, Wild- and Rhinegrave of Salm-Dhaun

9 comments:

  1. Totally unrelated to the post's topic but did you ever harmonize your view that the 'once was, and now is not' phrase makes the beast one of the 5 kings with Revelation 13's presentation of wounding & healing as something that happens before the world, causing it to marvel & follow after him?

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    Replies
    1. I'm growing increasingly skeptical of the Doctrine of an Individual Antichrist altogether.

      But the Healing of the Wound being Public can be achieved if they have a dead that is seen coming back to life. Or it could be that in this quasi Resurrected State the 8th King simply isn't killed by things that would Kill a normal Human.

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    2. That idea that the 8th isn't killed by the death blow seems to agree with the text and is quite interesting. I'd probably be on board with it if it didn't conflict with my current view on Daniel 11:45(basically Chris White's). Perhaps I'll take another look at your Augustus reading of this passage.

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    3. Even if Daniel 11:45 is about the Antichrist, it still doesn't actually he dies there.

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    4. What else could "Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him" indicate?

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    5. Perhaps "his end" refers to being thrown into the lake of fiery at Christ's return & White's view that the " time of anguish" chronologically follows 11:45 is incorrect?

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    6. It could just refer to a political downfall that leads up to the wounding.

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    7. Is this an accurate representation of the view you're espousing:

      The antichrist, if an individual, is a long dead personage(Antiochus?) who will ascend out of the pit as the midpoint nears.

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    8. I've grown a lot less certian on all aspects of the Antichrist doctrine then I used to be.

      That interpertation is one I've considered, but this parituclar post would be mostly irrelevent if that were the case.

      Though I would place the ascending out of the Abyss before the mid-point not right at it, how long before I can't say for certian.

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