I also agree with Chris White that Meshech and Tubal (and Rosh if it's a name) are in the area of Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. Tbilisi is the name of Georgia's Capital. Actually it seems like Georgia alone (Iberia in antiquity) can account for both Meshech and Tubal. (And Rosh is the one that's disputed whether it's a name at all.) Attempts to make a Turkish identification for Tubal are entirely dependent on a nation called Tabal. Tabal might not even have been where most historians think it was, our documentation on it is sketchy, it could have always been the same place as the Georgian Tubal. And this southern Anatolian location is essentially the same region that elsewhere is Biblicaly Tarshish. Also clerically the head of the Georgian Orthodox Church's full title is Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia, the Archbishop of Mtskheta-Tbilisi and Metropolitan Bishop of Bichvinta and Tskhum-Abkhazia.
But it’s amusing to me how much White thinks those identifications debunk associating this prophecy with Russia. Because in fact that region has a long history of being under the hegemony of Russia, the Tsars captured lost and recaptured that region multiple times, it was part of the USSR (in fact Stalin was ethnically Georgian) and now Putin is asserting his power over that region in multiple ways, last I checked he was still only militarily in Georgia but it’s safe to say all former USSR nations are part of his ultimate ambitions. But again I’m not gonna predict how successful he will be in that, I only mention Putin here because he adds to the precedent of that region being one Russia seeks to control.
Josephus identified Magog with the Scythians. And there is no dispute the region that is pointing to is north of the Black Sea, all in parts of modern Russia and Ukraine, another country that has frequently been part of the Russian empire and could be again in the future if Russia has its way.
Chris White and others attempt to deconstruct the significance of that identification by pointing out how “Scythians” was a term the Greeks used for many nomadic tribes of this region who may not have been as closely related to each other as the Greeks often assumed. But that really doesn’t matter.
1. Magog is not the only Genesis 10 name to have multiple people groups descended from them, remember all the nations are supposed to go back to these names and there are way more then 70.
Even if not all the Scythians were Magogite by strict patrilineal descent, Josephus is still clearly telling us this is the area to look for Magog in.
2. The fact is there is no solid alternative to what Josephus told us. And the arguments for putting Magog in modern Turkey are entirely based on past attempts to interpret Ezekiel 38-39 Preteristically by identifying Gog with Gyges of Lydia.
White also tries to argue Josephus was simply wrong about the Scythians because "Modern Historians" view their migration pattern differently, but that's because "Modern Historians" don't believe in The Table of Nations. For those of us who do believe in The Table of Nations (and even most Local Flood proponents need to include all the Indo Europeans among descendants of Noah) it's not just the Scythians who have to get to wherever their Secular History starts from Turkey, they all do. Josephus says nothing however to particularly associate Magog or the Scythians with anything south of the Caucus Mountains, that part of his description of the migration is about Japheth in general. In Wars 7.7.4 Josephus further identifies a group of Scythians as living by Late Meotis/Maeotis aka the Sea of Azov.
Meanwhile the Caspian Gates tradition shows that throughout Late Antiquity and the Early Medieval period north of the Caucus Mountains was where Christians, Jews and Muslims believed the hordes of Gog and Magog lived. One of the most popular proposed locations for the Gates is in the Russian province of Dagestan. Another is the Darial Pass in Ossetia-Alania The third is the Wall of Gorgon which is roughly the barrier between Iran and the former USSR republics east of the Caspian Sea, but I consider that the least likely of the three candidates since north of the main Biblical Lands is the point.
One dispute often brought into this discussion is whether the uses of Genesis 10 names in Bible Prophecy should be interpreted strictly geographically or if they can be “bloodlines” them as people groups that may have moved around. Though it’s primarily those taking the Geographical position who are very hardlined that it should always only be that method. Feeling that movements of people groups though out history is so complicated and uncertain that it can be used to make anything work.
The problem is it’s absurd to me to suggest that it should be universally the same method every time. The context of the reference needs to be considered in determining whether it’s about the land or the people. And in the case of Ezekiel 38 within one chapter the context of how different names are mentioned changes.
Magog, Meshech and Tubal are definitely references to their lands geographically, the word "land" is used in that verse. But with Gomer and Togarmah it’s the opposite, their “bands” are what are being referred to not their locations. But even more specifically than that with Togarmah it says the “House of Togarmah”. Every Biblical reference to the “House of David” is agreed to refer to the family of David wherever they may currently be, not the land David ruled. It could be these "bands" refer to mercenary or volunteer troops and not the proper nations those names refer to at all.
Persia, Cush and Phut are a little less clear which method is most appropriate. Fortunately those three groups haven’t significantly moved. Some of them have migrated and can indeed now be found on every continent. But primarily the Persians are still in Iran, the Cushites are still in Sudan and the Berbers are still in North Africa west of Egypt.
So yes the original settlement of Togarmah was the Anatolian city of Tegarama who's exact location is disputed. But as Bill Cooper documents in After The Flood they were conquered by the Assyrians who did to them the same thing they did to Israel. Many traditions have identified many tribes in and around the Caucus mountains to be descendants of Togarmah. But what’s most interesting to me is how the Khazzars who partly converted to Judaism identified their people as descendants of Togarmah. The core of their land was entirely within modern Russia to the north of Georgia. Christian of Stavelot in his Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam (860–870s) refers to the Khazzars as Gazari and says they lived in the lands of Gog and Magog. However there are also traditions that associate Armenia with Togarmah. Of course this opportunity to associate the Khazzars with Gog and Magog is sometimes abused by Anti-Semities, no the Ashkenazim aren't Khazzars.
Now because of what I believe about how to deal with the sons and grandsons of Noah’s sons I will not consider Ashkenaz or Riphath relevant to these chapters. Gomer does clearly originally refer to the Cimmerians who were in Anatolia, but again the Cimmerians moved around. The most solid argument for connecting them to Russia is Crimea. But it’s also possible the Scandinavian tribes who eventually came to Russia in medieval times could be at least partially of Gomerite stock. And according to Herodotus the original homeland of the Cimmerians was between the Thyras and Tanais rivers (Dinester and Don) much of the same location he associates with the Scythians, Ukraine and parts of Russia.
Russia is not the only place descendants of these two Genesis 10 names can be traced to. But the point is I already made a strictly geographical argument for Russia being the Land of Magog, so evidence of Gomer and Togarmah both winding up also in Russia further backs that up.
On it’s own I would not consider the “uttermost parts of the north” to prove anything since it could just mean anywhere North of Israel. But since we have other good reasons to place Magog in Russia that identification only further makes things fit.
You can find a few articles online arguing for Magog being Babylon, based on arguing Magog itself being a cipher for Babel similar to Sheshech in Jeremiah, and other thematic connections, like Babylon otherwise being missing from Ezekiel's prophecies of Judgments on the nations. However in the context of Mystery Babylon I should point out how the Tsars claimed Moscow was the Third Rome and that like the original Rome it too was a city on Seven Hills.
Tarshish, Sheba and Dedan are mentioned in the prophecy not as allies of the invaders but as nations criticizing the invaders. If anyone in this chapter is definitely Turkey it’s Tarshish which was Tarsus. (Though it is amusing how multiple competing Tarshish theories can be brought together by just saying Tarshish represents NATO here.) At least one of Sheba and Dedan would definitely be Saudi Arabia, maybe both are, or the other could be Jordan, Kuwait, Dubai or Yemen.
Meanwhile the Caspian Gates tradition shows that throughout Late Antiquity and the Early Medieval period north of the Caucus Mountains was where Christians, Jews and Muslims believed the hordes of Gog and Magog lived. One of the most popular proposed locations for the Gates is in the Russian province of Dagestan. Another is the Darial Pass in Ossetia-Alania The third is the Wall of Gorgon which is roughly the barrier between Iran and the former USSR republics east of the Caspian Sea, but I consider that the least likely of the three candidates since north of the main Biblical Lands is the point.
I don't believe the Gates of Alexander legend really happened because I don't believe Wall building was in Alexander's character. But I favor the Darial Pass being the inspiration for the legend for three reasons. 1. It best fits the between two mountains imagery. 2. The others weren't fortified till Late-Parthian or Sassanian times deep into the AD era while this one had fortifications going back to 150 BC. Meaning only it was already fortified when Josephus referred to the Caspian Gates (Antiquities 18.4.4 and Wars 7.7.4). 3. While all three regions were part of greater Scythia, this region is where modern Scythians still survive today, still speaking a Scythian language and some even still practicing their ancient pre-Christian Scythian Paganism.
I also think it's possible the names of Gog and Magog could be etymologically related to the name of the Caucus mountains themselves. Jerome specifically placed Magog beyond the Caucasus by the Caspian Sea.
Kaukas is the name of a mythical ancestor of the various North-Eastern Caucasian peoples like the Nakh and others who live in Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia. Now a lot of these traditions make him a son of Togarmah, but I think the name could simply be a form of Gog. I think the Greeks included these people when they spoke of Scythians even though they didn't speak what modern scholars classify as a Scythian language. Ancient Georgia/Iberia also had a region called Gogharena.
And no identifying Russia with Magog didn't begin during The Cold War, there is documentation for example that many Protestants in both Brittan and the United Stated identified Russia with Magog during the Crimean War of 1853-1856.
"In 1840, John Nelson Darby wrote that Gog, referred to in the book of Ezekiel6 , was the contemporary state of Russia, which was “extending her power over the nations who will be found under Gog” (quoted in Boyer, 1992, 154). While not the first to make this interpretation of the Bible, it was Darby’s preaching that influenced John Cumming, the man who popularized Russia’s hypothesized role in the Endtimes with his book, The End (1855), published during the Crimean War."
That's a quote taken from an article against the Russia theory, on page 13.
One dispute often brought into this discussion is whether the uses of Genesis 10 names in Bible Prophecy should be interpreted strictly geographically or if they can be “bloodlines” them as people groups that may have moved around. Though it’s primarily those taking the Geographical position who are very hardlined that it should always only be that method. Feeling that movements of people groups though out history is so complicated and uncertain that it can be used to make anything work.
The problem is it’s absurd to me to suggest that it should be universally the same method every time. The context of the reference needs to be considered in determining whether it’s about the land or the people. And in the case of Ezekiel 38 within one chapter the context of how different names are mentioned changes.
Magog, Meshech and Tubal are definitely references to their lands geographically, the word "land" is used in that verse. But with Gomer and Togarmah it’s the opposite, their “bands” are what are being referred to not their locations. But even more specifically than that with Togarmah it says the “House of Togarmah”. Every Biblical reference to the “House of David” is agreed to refer to the family of David wherever they may currently be, not the land David ruled. It could be these "bands" refer to mercenary or volunteer troops and not the proper nations those names refer to at all.
Persia, Cush and Phut are a little less clear which method is most appropriate. Fortunately those three groups haven’t significantly moved. Some of them have migrated and can indeed now be found on every continent. But primarily the Persians are still in Iran, the Cushites are still in Sudan and the Berbers are still in North Africa west of Egypt.
So yes the original settlement of Togarmah was the Anatolian city of Tegarama who's exact location is disputed. But as Bill Cooper documents in After The Flood they were conquered by the Assyrians who did to them the same thing they did to Israel. Many traditions have identified many tribes in and around the Caucus mountains to be descendants of Togarmah. But what’s most interesting to me is how the Khazzars who partly converted to Judaism identified their people as descendants of Togarmah. The core of their land was entirely within modern Russia to the north of Georgia. Christian of Stavelot in his Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam (860–870s) refers to the Khazzars as Gazari and says they lived in the lands of Gog and Magog. However there are also traditions that associate Armenia with Togarmah. Of course this opportunity to associate the Khazzars with Gog and Magog is sometimes abused by Anti-Semities, no the Ashkenazim aren't Khazzars.
Now because of what I believe about how to deal with the sons and grandsons of Noah’s sons I will not consider Ashkenaz or Riphath relevant to these chapters. Gomer does clearly originally refer to the Cimmerians who were in Anatolia, but again the Cimmerians moved around. The most solid argument for connecting them to Russia is Crimea. But it’s also possible the Scandinavian tribes who eventually came to Russia in medieval times could be at least partially of Gomerite stock. And according to Herodotus the original homeland of the Cimmerians was between the Thyras and Tanais rivers (Dinester and Don) much of the same location he associates with the Scythians, Ukraine and parts of Russia.
Russia is not the only place descendants of these two Genesis 10 names can be traced to. But the point is I already made a strictly geographical argument for Russia being the Land of Magog, so evidence of Gomer and Togarmah both winding up also in Russia further backs that up.
On it’s own I would not consider the “uttermost parts of the north” to prove anything since it could just mean anywhere North of Israel. But since we have other good reasons to place Magog in Russia that identification only further makes things fit.
You can find a few articles online arguing for Magog being Babylon, based on arguing Magog itself being a cipher for Babel similar to Sheshech in Jeremiah, and other thematic connections, like Babylon otherwise being missing from Ezekiel's prophecies of Judgments on the nations. However in the context of Mystery Babylon I should point out how the Tsars claimed Moscow was the Third Rome and that like the original Rome it too was a city on Seven Hills.
Tarshish, Sheba and Dedan are mentioned in the prophecy not as allies of the invaders but as nations criticizing the invaders. If anyone in this chapter is definitely Turkey it’s Tarshish which was Tarsus. (Though it is amusing how multiple competing Tarshish theories can be brought together by just saying Tarshish represents NATO here.) At least one of Sheba and Dedan would definitely be Saudi Arabia, maybe both are, or the other could be Jordan, Kuwait, Dubai or Yemen.
All that is if the borders of the Middle East resemble their modern borders when this prophecy happens, it’s very possible they won’t anymore.
Again I do NOT believe in an imminent Gog and Magog invasion, this is the conclusion I’m coming to about Magog with genuinely no dog in that fight. Chris White tries to make himself seem just as unbiased by taking basically the same timing position I do. But White I feel has a tendency I used to have towards wanting to be contrarian on issues like this, he wants to deconstruct the Russia identification because it’s popular and so often tied to other views he’s against.
Joel Richardson wants to deconstruct the Russia identification because he feels it better fits his Islamic Antichrist view to make it Turkey. I am still undecided on exactly what I believe about the cultural/religious background of the "Antichrist". But Islam is the world’s fastest growing religion and it already has a very strong presence in parts of Russia, and even more in many former USSR nations. Putin is devoutly Eastern Orthodox but a future leader could take them in a Muslim direction. The identifications I have made here could fit seeing the invaders as the Shiiites (Iran and Azerbaijan are the two leading Shiite nations) and those criticizing them as the Sunnis. Dagestan interestingly is a province of Russia that is already majority Muslim, as is neighboring Chechnya and Ingushetia.
Again I do NOT believe in an imminent Gog and Magog invasion, this is the conclusion I’m coming to about Magog with genuinely no dog in that fight. Chris White tries to make himself seem just as unbiased by taking basically the same timing position I do. But White I feel has a tendency I used to have towards wanting to be contrarian on issues like this, he wants to deconstruct the Russia identification because it’s popular and so often tied to other views he’s against.
Joel Richardson wants to deconstruct the Russia identification because he feels it better fits his Islamic Antichrist view to make it Turkey. I am still undecided on exactly what I believe about the cultural/religious background of the "Antichrist". But Islam is the world’s fastest growing religion and it already has a very strong presence in parts of Russia, and even more in many former USSR nations. Putin is devoutly Eastern Orthodox but a future leader could take them in a Muslim direction. The identifications I have made here could fit seeing the invaders as the Shiiites (Iran and Azerbaijan are the two leading Shiite nations) and those criticizing them as the Sunnis. Dagestan interestingly is a province of Russia that is already majority Muslim, as is neighboring Chechnya and Ingushetia.
Update October 2020 on if Rosh is a name or not.
It's interesting how complicated that debate is with there being Magog is not Russia supporters willing to say it is a name and Magog is Russia supporters willing to say it's not. Since I originally made this post I have become the latter category.
The Septuagint/LXX witness is kind of the main smoking gun argument for saying it is a name since so many Traditionalist Christians trust it so much. But on another Blog I've long expressed my reservations regarding the LXX.
The Latin Vulgate, Aramaic Targums and Aramaic Peshitta all support it not being a name but a word for Chief or Head. Now I know many of my fellow Protestants love to go "the Vulgate must be wrong" but what's more important to me is having two Aramaic witnesses. As a fellow Semitic language they had an inherent advantage in translating the Hebrew properly. Jerome meanwhile studied Hebrew and talked to Rabbis and many Old Testament differences between Vulgate and LXX were him correcting LXX mistakes that were well known to the Hebrews even back then.
Now it is still possible The Holy Spirit was using prophetic word play. The USSR was a Confederacy of nations each with it's own Nasi but the one called Russia was the chief among them. Now today the USSR is gone and I believe this Prophecy happens after the Millennium. But since I believe Jesus is a Communist, He may very well restore the USSR at the start of the Millennium, though I do suspect He's more of a Menshevik then a Leninist, or better yet a Left SR.
But regardless, the problem with the Rosh fixation is so many people think Russia as Magog is utterly dependent on that identification and so act like deconstructing that is all they need to do. But I can make the argument without ever bringing that up, or making any Meshach=Moscow connection either.
Meanwhile in the context of my observations about defining the Genesis 10 nations by their Languages, the only surviving Scythian Language is spoken only in Ossetia a region that's partly in Russia and partly in the Russian occupied parts of Georgia.
Update June 14th 2021: So Christ White has changed his position on Rosh being a name in his new study on the subject.
But that's not all he's changed, he no longer talks about Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan when discussing Meshach and Tubal, instead he wants to place all the Japhetic names of Ezekiel 38 in "Eastern Turkey". I can't help but assume this change happened because he realized what I argued above, Meshach and Tubal being in Georgia helps rather then hurts Magog being Russia.
Update March 29th 2022: Debunking Anatolian Tubal once and for all.
I've looked into the Basis for the Anatolian Tubal and it's even worse and more embarrassing then I thought it was. The so called Anatolian Tubal is what was in classical antiquity known as Tyana but more anciently was Tuwana or Tuwanuwa, and there may have been a related tribe called Tuali.
The second letter of this word appears to be one for U or W which you can then equate to the Hebrew Vav, but the Vav is also sometimes V and Beth is also sometimes V so maybe the Hebrew confused them? Well no Vav being also V is a very late development in the languages history, one that is certainly not a factor in anything in the Pentateuch. So the entire etymological basis for this identification is worthless.
The Georgian Tubal identification is far more credible, their Capital is called that to this day Tbilisi and is known to have been called that since very ancient times. The variations are caused in part by the occasional L and R confusion (it's not something that only happens with English to Japanese, I have always heard the L in the middle of Colonel as an R). And after that Iberes and Iberia/Iberian comes from the T being dropped for some reason.
The argument for a Meshech in ancient Cappadocia is more valid, and here's the thing I think originally Meshech did settle there and their original post Flood Language was the language modern scholars call Hattian (not to be confused with the Indo-European language spoken by the Anatolian Hitties), but as that region was eventually conquered by various other Anatolian Empires their remnant moved to where their brother Tubal lived in Georgia and adopted their language(s) and that is why Eschatological references always pair those two together. Cappadocia and Tyana are not close enough to justify that consistent pairing.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't comment on all the names mentioned but here are some comments on the main ones:
Russia:
Russia is one of the members of G7/G8 which has 10 heads/executives and might match the 7 headed 10 horned beast?
Rosh:
Rosh prince of Magog could be Rus/Russia, since God knew the future in the past. Though some translations translate Rosh as "chief" giving "chief prince of Magog" (as you did mention).
Magog:
Magog's meaning and details could match Russia or the North.
Magog means "an appellative name", or, "prefix" / "place/land/region of/from" + roof/ceiling/mountain/God" / "out of (&) to increase" / "the roof of something rising".
Magogs details are: far recesses of the north / northern parts, n(e), wall, Rosh "chief/head", land/location not mentioned.
The meaning and name could also match the Cro-Magnons of the last maximum of the ice age, or Manco Capac in Peru.
Other possible names matches are
Magor (Hungarian)? Magyar (Hungarian)? Mongol? Macedonian? Mac Oc (Celt)? Membij (Carchemish)? Manco Capac (Peru)? Magan (Sumerian)? Magi (Persia)? Magos (Phoenician)? Manu? Maori? Mayan? Manchu? Cro-Magnon? Mabon (Celtic)? Magni (Norse)? Moon? Maju (Basque)? Hamangog? Apophis (Egyptian)? Agag? Ogma (Celtic)? Ogus Khan? Ogygia? Gyges (Lydia)? Ghegs (Albania)? Goths? God? Georgian? Gutium (Sumerian)? Bog ("God", Russian)? ZOG/JOG? Wog?
"Gog & Magog":
But (Gog and )Magog in biblical BC history, and (Gog and) Magog in prophecy and Revelation/Apocalypse might not be Russia. Revelation says the Devil will go out and decieve the nations of the world Gog and Magog, which seems to imply some sort of past worldwide history significance of Gog and Magog. This might fit the Cro-Magnons (Homo sapiens) or Manco Capac (Peru which is the site of Atlantis capital city)?
Meshech/Mash:
Possible names matches:
Moscow is pretty late and not likely to match Meshech of the OT.
Mushki/Moschi (Phrygia) is also pretty late in Assyrian records.
Mexica/Mexico is a possible match.
Or the Meshwesh Sea Peoples.
Mercury? Mars? Mjesjac (Slavic)? Massagetae? Moesia? Mysian? Mazaca? Messene? Marrakesh? Basques/Vascones? Macchu Picchu? Mixtec? Maxy(c)es (Libya)? Meshede (Uruk 1 dyn)? Mochica? Mushkogean? Wessex? Mecca? Mt Mashu? Damascus? America? Milesian?
Meshech means "price/precious / economy" / "a trail (of seed), a drawing out/up, tall / to draw/pull/direct/lead" / "aquisition in the process of scattering seeds and those seeds taking root and then multiplying and spreading" / "guest"? / "touch/move".
Meshech's details details: "Tubal & Meshech", graves, slaves, sea not mentioned elsewhere, traffikcers/brass.
Tubal:
Possible names matches for Tubal include:
Tabal (Anatolia/Transcaucasia)?
Tabriz or Tobolsk or Tflis/Tbilisi (Transcaucasia/Iran)?
Vulcan?
Subartu (Sumerian)? Tiwanaku/Tiahuanaco? Iberia? Tyrrhenia? Tibareni? Tuva (Mongolia)? Thor/Donar? Toltec/Tulan? Fir-bolg (Irish)? Baltic? Brutus? Tuvalu (Polynesia)? Italus? Atlas? Turan? Baluchi? Tylos? Turehu? Deucalion? Cuman? Cyprus ("copper")? Bantu? Buryat?
Tubal means "you shall/will be b(r)ought of, producer/production" / "draw out" / "tumult" / "to increase and flow as a mighty river".
Tubal's details: Tubal & Meshech, graves, traffickers/slaves/brass, sea not mentioned elsewhere.
"Tubal & Meshech":
Meshech is grouped with Tubal as "Tubal and Meshech".
Taking the meanings of Tubal and Meshech given above it could possibly mean like production and commerce? Similar to Laodicea being a manufacturing & commercial centre.
Otherwise it might imply they are close or related?
See the meanings of the names of the Japhethites here https://theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4856/table-nations-genesis-10?page=1
All good theory but... I think you are over thinking it.
ReplyDeleteI believe we all agree that the Gog-Magog war will occur after the Abomination of Desolation; that puts the Antichrist in charge of a 1World global government(Isa 10:13>:14)There are no more nations at this point. I looked up the Hebrew meaning of the names: Gog=covering,compare that with Eze 28:14(Satan)the anointed cherub that covereth; Magog=dissolving,(as in nations dissolving into a single system),Meshech=who by force, and Tubal=world,confusion; and it makes sense. God, through Ezekiel is slandering the Beast and False Prophet by calling them these names.
And... because the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem, and Antichrist has risen to world ruler. The Whore of Babylon is now..."the great city"(Rev 11:8) Jerusalem, the world center of idolatry.
I don't believe in any of that World Government stuff.
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