I'm not dogmatic on any date setting. But I have come to an interesting hypothetical theory.
If you take Ussher's Creation date (4004 B.C.) and correct him only on the 60 year dispute on when in Terah's life Abraham was born, you get 3944 B.C. Which then has 2057 mark the begging of the 6001st year of History, (remember that there is no year 0).
Meanwhile J.R. Church had his Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms theory, centered on the fact that Psalm 48 could be viewed as a Prophecy of Israel's restoration in 1948 (though it's ultimately about New Jerusalem). But he stopped viewing them as correlating to years with Book 5 (Psalm 107 and up) because he didn't want the end to be that far off. With 150 Psalms, that puts the Period the Psalms document as ending in 2050.
There are reasons I've come to theorize that the Seventh Trumpet (which I view as the midway point of the 70th week) could correlate to a Solar Eclipse on the eve of the Feast of Trumpets (First of Tishri). There will be one on September 12 of 53 AD. This is similar to the August 2 2027 eclipse a certain website online sees as significant. But that Eclipse is two months too early to be the Feast of Trumpets. That site also uses historist day=year theory nonsense about Issac Newton's 2060 theory.
It will only be partial over Israel, but be Total over North Africa and Arabia. I think it only being Partial is fine, it's pretty rare any of the Solar Eclipses at the right time of year are visible in Israel at all, and the next century has none that are Total over Israel. Jesus' description in Matthew 24 has the Sun and Moon darkened but still visible. This one fits the best of any within the life time of people alive now.
I'm not a supporter of the Blood Moon theory as I've explained on this blog before. If the Moon turning to Blood in Joel 2 and Revelation 6 has any natural explanation at all, volcanic eruptions can work just as easily. And there is certainly no Tetrad needed, the Blood Moon references in Scripture are all a singular event.
However I have argued for unrelated reasons that I feel the Sixth Seal events could happen on the Passover of the Nisan that begins the 70th Week. And at any rate I do think the moon turning to Blood would have the best dramatic effect if it's a Full Moon.
There will be a Total Lunar Eclipse visible in Israel on May 6 of 2050. On the Calendar the Jews currently use that's a month too late to be Passover. But some people think the Jewish calendar is in some years off by a month, and indeed the Samaritans and Karaites both do their leap months differently. But if it is accurate then that May 6th would be Second Passover, which I have before argued for seeing as possibly eschatologicaly significant. This Blood Moon is also the first of a Tetrad.
The Sixth Seal theory I've worked out before could easily be adjusted to that, the Horsemen would still ride in Nisan.
Back to the 2053 Solar Eclipse. It will be at that time that Jupiter is leaving Virgo after having been in her for over 9 months. Venus, Mercury, Uranus and Mars will all be in Virgo at that time too. Which can be interesting in light of Revelation 12 theories. The Moon will indeed be under the feet of Virgo just a few days later.
The top objection to this other then usual anti Date Setting sentiment would be the view that the end must come within a generation of 1948. People are already beginning to more commonly live to 120, so some people born before 1948 could still be alive in 2057.
Edit Update : I was honestly unaware when I first came up with this of Frank J. Tipler and his reasons for predicting the second coming before 2057. (of course my model as a form of "Mid-Trib" places the Second Coming proper in 2053).
Showing posts with label Cosmic Signs. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Cosmic Signs. Show all posts
Saturday, February 7, 2015
Saturday, July 26, 2014
The Seventh and Last Trumpet
First I want to address those who refute the Seventh Trumpet view by claiming the "Last Trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) being called the "Trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) means it can't be sounded by an Angel. Everything in Heaven is of God, and the Seventh Trumpet being clearly separated from the rest in it's sounding makes it unique. In Revelation 15 and 16 the Seven bowls of Gods Wrath are poured out by Angels, even though we all know the Wrath in question is Of God, the Trumpets are the same.
A debate exists over whether or not the "Last Trump" that signals the Rapture in Thessalonians, and Corinthians and Matthew 24 is the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11 or the Last Trumpet sounded on the Feast of Trumpets.
Chris White argues it's neither and that we should look at the Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10.
It is true that the Biblical Hebrew text does not explicitly link Trumpets to the First of Tishri feast in Leviticus 23:24, that's an assumption we make based on Trumpets being added in translation, and extra Biblical traditions about that day. Chris White however seems to assume the Trumpets affiliated with the First of Tishri are the Ram's Horns. But a book I have on Hebrew customs (by Ethan Allen) says Silver Trumpets and Shofar were both sounded on that day.
Numbers 10:10 does say the Silver Trumpets are to be sounded "Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months". Now "solemn days" in the Hebrew texts refers to the "appointed times' or High Holy Days, meaning all of them outlined in Leviticus 23. And the beginning of each month would also include the First of Tishri.
The single word translated "blowing of trumpets" in Leviticus 23:24 is T@ruw`ah (ter-oo-aw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 8643. Is used in Numbers 10:5&6 where it is translated "Alarm".
"When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys."
In verse 7 it's a different word translated alarm, but one that is probably the root of the final syllable of Taruwah.
At any rate I'd agree we can't build solid doctrine on any extra Biblical assumptions about Rosh Hoshana. But this one may have more of a Biblical basis then he realized. The First of Tishri is the one day there is double the reason to sound those Trumpets. And the only thing we are told about it in Leviticus is a key word also used in Numbers 10 about blowing Trumpets.
Actually Psalm 81 I feel kind of refutes the claim that there is no Biblical basis for linking Trumpets to the First of Tishri. In verse 3 Asaph wrote "Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day." The only day that is both a New Moon and one of the Leviticus 23 ordained major Feast Days is the First of Tishri. Here though Shofar is used rather then the word for the Silver Trumpets.
I don't think we should distinguish between the Rams Horns and Silver Trumpets in terms of how they may symbolically point to Heavenly/Eschatology Trumpets. Whether it's the verses indisputably about The Rapture or the Seven Trumpets in Revelation. Earthly Trumpets needed to be made from separate materials for Earthly reasons, but the Heavenly Trumpets are probably not really made from any Earthly substance at all. Silver is Levitcully a symbol of Redemption, and Ram's Horns are taken from Sacrificial offerings. So symbolically both point to Jesus as our Sin Offering, who's voice is sometimes described as "like a Trumpet". And the New Testament only uses one Greek word for Trumpet.
Hosea 5:8 Poetically uses both words for Trumpet as if their synonyms. But the KJV renders one of them Cornet to avoid sounding redundant.
He's also wrong that the Trumpet themes through out the Prophets are always the Silver Trumpets. Hosea 5:8 is the only time the Silver Trumpets are mentioend in the Porphetic Books. And Psalm 98 the only time they're in the Psalms. Both have the Shofar also in the same verse. Every other Trumpet reference in the Psalms or Prophets it is the Shofar. And Plenty seem linked to The Rapture/Day of The LORD.
I believe that the references to the Trumpets in Revelation are meant to draw on all the earlier Trumpet themes of Scripture. Both the Silver and the Rams Horns. Because I view Revelation as explaining the rest of Scripture, and unveiling all things that were before mysteries. Meaning if the Trumpet that signals the Rapture isn't in Revelation, then Revelation has arguably failed to serve part of it's purpose.
Post-Tirbbers often agree with seeing the Rapture in the same Revelation passages Mid-Tirbbers do, but make it compatible with their view by garbling the chronology of Revelation in ways that are ridiculous. Those would also agree with my on the Seventh Trumpet being sounded on he First of Tishri, I would point out that there is no Biblical basis for God post Exodus ever returning to Tishri rather then Nisan years.
Of the passages outside Revelation viewed as being the most indisputably about The Rapture, a Trumpet sounding is the most nearly universal detail. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52, and I feel the most solid Old Testament reference in Joel. Yet Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath people refuse to look for a Trumpet in their placement in Revelation, and Pre-Wrathers feel their position is proved by Rapture signs only used in the Olivite Discourse yet never by Paul.
Both Post-Tribbers and Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath supporters love to refute the Pre-Trib argument that Matthew 24 isn't referring to the same coming/gathering as Paul by pointing out all the parallels between that account and Paul's from Thessalonians and Corinthians. There are at least 20. But what many either miss or ignore is that a number of those same parallels apply to the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11.
We have a Trumpet sounding followed by great voices in Heaven. The use of the word "Archangel" in Corinthians is a different from then when Jude uses it of Michael. It ends with an "n" making it technically plural in Greek.
We have The Four Cherubim declaring God's Wrath is come, in a way that makes clear it hadn't come before the 7th Trumpet.
We have talk about it now being the "Time of the Dead" and time to judge and reward the saints. That sounds like the Bema Judgment to me.
I also think "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament" could correlate to "The sign of the Son of Man" being seen in the Heavens. One can argue the Ark of the New Testament is the Cross on which The Lamb's Blood was shed for our Sins.
There is lighting and another Earthquake. The Seventh Trumpet account lacks reference to the Sun or Moon being darkened. But this could be left over effect for the Fourth Trumpet, and/or when the Smoke form the Abyss covered The Earth following the Fifth.
Also there were no Chapter breaks originally, to Revelation 12's beginning is still the Seventh Trumpet. The word Harpatzo is used, and stars fall from heaven. And possibly a layer of meaning here is astronomical clues pointing to the New Moon of Tishri.
Then after the rest of 12 and 14 continue laying out the Mid-Trib drama, we come to 14.
The 144 Thousand are seen on Mt. Zion, and it sounds to me like they're in their Resurrected state, with talk of being "Redeemed from the Earth" and being the "First Fruits". I do not allegorize the 144 Thousand, they're a specific group of believer. But I do think their part of the Church and Resurrected already here. A better argument certainly then the weak one that the Multitude in Chapter 7 are Resurrected already.
And latter we have "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man" in verse 14. And with it's Harvest imagery.
And further reading shows the pouring out of God's Wrath is still only about to happen.
And then supplemental to what follows the Seventh Trumpet, is what proceeds it. It seems to immediately follow the Resurrection and Rapture of the Two Witnesses. Again, I do not allegorize the Witnesses, they're Enoch and Elijah to me. But I do think it's possible their Rapture could have a connection to ours. Their being taken out of the Earth alive before are each seen as types of The Rapture after all.
I think there is more then enough connection between the Seventh Trumpet and the Last Trump to see them as connected.
Revelation 9:20 shows the Image of the Beast hasn't been set up yet. Because the Idols these people are being judged for worshiping "neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:". So the life like Image of the beast isn't here yet.
Actually, Revelation 9 is a major Death nail for the Pre-Wrath position. No damned individual should be able to Ascend out of the Bottomless Pit before it is unlocked. But the Pre-Wrath position needs this to be well after the Abomination of Desolation, which can't happen until after The Beast ascends out of the Bottomless Pit. We're told he's ascended out of it already when he kills The Two Witnesses.
I believe Revelation 9 is the Removal of The Restrainer. As I explained in this blog's first post.
Pre-Wrath people usually insist the ministry of The Witnesses is the second half of the 70th week. But Malachi clearly says Elijah returns BEFORE the great and terrible Day of the LORD.
I've also decided I see Joel 2:1 as the Sixth Trumpet, what happens after it sounds has some clear parallels to what happens in Revelation 9:13 and up, with a bizarre Supernatural army of Fiery Horsemen.
And so Joel 2:15 I see as the Seventh Trumpet, where the people are Gathered and the Groom collects his Bride. Between them in verse 10 the Sun and Moon are described as being darkened.
I did a Google search on the subject, and it seems no one else has noticed this yet, Which surprises me. Many I've seen, like in J.R. Church's book on the Minor Prophets, link Joel Chapter 2 to the Fifth Trumpet, though to me that doesn't work quite as well. I don't like Allegorizeing the Locust of Revelation 9 into an Army, when the next Judgment is explicitly defined as an Army. To me the creatures let out of the Abyss are Demons taking temporary physical forms, like the ones they sometimes take from TransYughothian Ceremonial Magick rituals. That's the significance of The Smoke.
The Invading Army in Joel 2 is usually either taken as the Gog and Magog Invasion, or Armageddon. But to me it seems to be placed before The Rapture, which doesn't fit the latter. And I've become convinced that the former happens after the Millennium.
It seems people identifying as Pre-Wrath think a lot still happens between the Abomination of Desolation and the Rapture. Enough to account for months or even years. Basically, to them the Persecution of The Church the Matthew 24 Olivite Discourse describes happening before the Abomination of Desolation, and as correlating to the Fifth Seal, actually happens after the Abomination.
Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 clears places the "Falling Away" before the Abomination of Desolation. This falling Away is seen by Pre-Wrather as correlating to the Matthew 24 persecution.
There are two coming end times Persecutions I believe. As I explain in the "Great Tribulation" post.
I believe the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet is on the Feast of Trumpets. So it's not either/or between those two options.
A debate exists over whether or not the "Last Trump" that signals the Rapture in Thessalonians, and Corinthians and Matthew 24 is the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11 or the Last Trumpet sounded on the Feast of Trumpets.
Chris White argues it's neither and that we should look at the Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10.
It is true that the Biblical Hebrew text does not explicitly link Trumpets to the First of Tishri feast in Leviticus 23:24, that's an assumption we make based on Trumpets being added in translation, and extra Biblical traditions about that day. Chris White however seems to assume the Trumpets affiliated with the First of Tishri are the Ram's Horns. But a book I have on Hebrew customs (by Ethan Allen) says Silver Trumpets and Shofar were both sounded on that day.
Numbers 10:10 does say the Silver Trumpets are to be sounded "Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months". Now "solemn days" in the Hebrew texts refers to the "appointed times' or High Holy Days, meaning all of them outlined in Leviticus 23. And the beginning of each month would also include the First of Tishri.
The single word translated "blowing of trumpets" in Leviticus 23:24 is T@ruw`ah (ter-oo-aw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 8643. Is used in Numbers 10:5&6 where it is translated "Alarm".
"When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys."
In verse 7 it's a different word translated alarm, but one that is probably the root of the final syllable of Taruwah.
At any rate I'd agree we can't build solid doctrine on any extra Biblical assumptions about Rosh Hoshana. But this one may have more of a Biblical basis then he realized. The First of Tishri is the one day there is double the reason to sound those Trumpets. And the only thing we are told about it in Leviticus is a key word also used in Numbers 10 about blowing Trumpets.
Actually Psalm 81 I feel kind of refutes the claim that there is no Biblical basis for linking Trumpets to the First of Tishri. In verse 3 Asaph wrote "Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day." The only day that is both a New Moon and one of the Leviticus 23 ordained major Feast Days is the First of Tishri. Here though Shofar is used rather then the word for the Silver Trumpets.
I don't think we should distinguish between the Rams Horns and Silver Trumpets in terms of how they may symbolically point to Heavenly/Eschatology Trumpets. Whether it's the verses indisputably about The Rapture or the Seven Trumpets in Revelation. Earthly Trumpets needed to be made from separate materials for Earthly reasons, but the Heavenly Trumpets are probably not really made from any Earthly substance at all. Silver is Levitcully a symbol of Redemption, and Ram's Horns are taken from Sacrificial offerings. So symbolically both point to Jesus as our Sin Offering, who's voice is sometimes described as "like a Trumpet". And the New Testament only uses one Greek word for Trumpet.
Hosea 5:8 Poetically uses both words for Trumpet as if their synonyms. But the KJV renders one of them Cornet to avoid sounding redundant.
He's also wrong that the Trumpet themes through out the Prophets are always the Silver Trumpets. Hosea 5:8 is the only time the Silver Trumpets are mentioend in the Porphetic Books. And Psalm 98 the only time they're in the Psalms. Both have the Shofar also in the same verse. Every other Trumpet reference in the Psalms or Prophets it is the Shofar. And Plenty seem linked to The Rapture/Day of The LORD.
I believe that the references to the Trumpets in Revelation are meant to draw on all the earlier Trumpet themes of Scripture. Both the Silver and the Rams Horns. Because I view Revelation as explaining the rest of Scripture, and unveiling all things that were before mysteries. Meaning if the Trumpet that signals the Rapture isn't in Revelation, then Revelation has arguably failed to serve part of it's purpose.
Post-Tirbbers often agree with seeing the Rapture in the same Revelation passages Mid-Tirbbers do, but make it compatible with their view by garbling the chronology of Revelation in ways that are ridiculous. Those would also agree with my on the Seventh Trumpet being sounded on he First of Tishri, I would point out that there is no Biblical basis for God post Exodus ever returning to Tishri rather then Nisan years.
Of the passages outside Revelation viewed as being the most indisputably about The Rapture, a Trumpet sounding is the most nearly universal detail. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52, and I feel the most solid Old Testament reference in Joel. Yet Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath people refuse to look for a Trumpet in their placement in Revelation, and Pre-Wrathers feel their position is proved by Rapture signs only used in the Olivite Discourse yet never by Paul.
Both Post-Tribbers and Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath supporters love to refute the Pre-Trib argument that Matthew 24 isn't referring to the same coming/gathering as Paul by pointing out all the parallels between that account and Paul's from Thessalonians and Corinthians. There are at least 20. But what many either miss or ignore is that a number of those same parallels apply to the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11.
We have a Trumpet sounding followed by great voices in Heaven. The use of the word "Archangel" in Corinthians is a different from then when Jude uses it of Michael. It ends with an "n" making it technically plural in Greek.
We have The Four Cherubim declaring God's Wrath is come, in a way that makes clear it hadn't come before the 7th Trumpet.
We have talk about it now being the "Time of the Dead" and time to judge and reward the saints. That sounds like the Bema Judgment to me.
I also think "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament" could correlate to "The sign of the Son of Man" being seen in the Heavens. One can argue the Ark of the New Testament is the Cross on which The Lamb's Blood was shed for our Sins.
There is lighting and another Earthquake. The Seventh Trumpet account lacks reference to the Sun or Moon being darkened. But this could be left over effect for the Fourth Trumpet, and/or when the Smoke form the Abyss covered The Earth following the Fifth.
Also there were no Chapter breaks originally, to Revelation 12's beginning is still the Seventh Trumpet. The word Harpatzo is used, and stars fall from heaven. And possibly a layer of meaning here is astronomical clues pointing to the New Moon of Tishri.
Then after the rest of 12 and 14 continue laying out the Mid-Trib drama, we come to 14.
The 144 Thousand are seen on Mt. Zion, and it sounds to me like they're in their Resurrected state, with talk of being "Redeemed from the Earth" and being the "First Fruits". I do not allegorize the 144 Thousand, they're a specific group of believer. But I do think their part of the Church and Resurrected already here. A better argument certainly then the weak one that the Multitude in Chapter 7 are Resurrected already.
And latter we have "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man" in verse 14. And with it's Harvest imagery.
And further reading shows the pouring out of God's Wrath is still only about to happen.
And then supplemental to what follows the Seventh Trumpet, is what proceeds it. It seems to immediately follow the Resurrection and Rapture of the Two Witnesses. Again, I do not allegorize the Witnesses, they're Enoch and Elijah to me. But I do think it's possible their Rapture could have a connection to ours. Their being taken out of the Earth alive before are each seen as types of The Rapture after all.
I think there is more then enough connection between the Seventh Trumpet and the Last Trump to see them as connected.
Revelation 9:20 shows the Image of the Beast hasn't been set up yet. Because the Idols these people are being judged for worshiping "neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:". So the life like Image of the beast isn't here yet.
Actually, Revelation 9 is a major Death nail for the Pre-Wrath position. No damned individual should be able to Ascend out of the Bottomless Pit before it is unlocked. But the Pre-Wrath position needs this to be well after the Abomination of Desolation, which can't happen until after The Beast ascends out of the Bottomless Pit. We're told he's ascended out of it already when he kills The Two Witnesses.
I believe Revelation 9 is the Removal of The Restrainer. As I explained in this blog's first post.
Pre-Wrath people usually insist the ministry of The Witnesses is the second half of the 70th week. But Malachi clearly says Elijah returns BEFORE the great and terrible Day of the LORD.
I've also decided I see Joel 2:1 as the Sixth Trumpet, what happens after it sounds has some clear parallels to what happens in Revelation 9:13 and up, with a bizarre Supernatural army of Fiery Horsemen.
And so Joel 2:15 I see as the Seventh Trumpet, where the people are Gathered and the Groom collects his Bride. Between them in verse 10 the Sun and Moon are described as being darkened.
I did a Google search on the subject, and it seems no one else has noticed this yet, Which surprises me. Many I've seen, like in J.R. Church's book on the Minor Prophets, link Joel Chapter 2 to the Fifth Trumpet, though to me that doesn't work quite as well. I don't like Allegorizeing the Locust of Revelation 9 into an Army, when the next Judgment is explicitly defined as an Army. To me the creatures let out of the Abyss are Demons taking temporary physical forms, like the ones they sometimes take from TransYughothian Ceremonial Magick rituals. That's the significance of The Smoke.
The Invading Army in Joel 2 is usually either taken as the Gog and Magog Invasion, or Armageddon. But to me it seems to be placed before The Rapture, which doesn't fit the latter. And I've become convinced that the former happens after the Millennium.
It seems people identifying as Pre-Wrath think a lot still happens between the Abomination of Desolation and the Rapture. Enough to account for months or even years. Basically, to them the Persecution of The Church the Matthew 24 Olivite Discourse describes happening before the Abomination of Desolation, and as correlating to the Fifth Seal, actually happens after the Abomination.
Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 clears places the "Falling Away" before the Abomination of Desolation. This falling Away is seen by Pre-Wrather as correlating to the Matthew 24 persecution.
There are two coming end times Persecutions I believe. As I explain in the "Great Tribulation" post.
I believe the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet is on the Feast of Trumpets. So it's not either/or between those two options.
The Sixth Seal
Revelation 6:12-17
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
First
of all, I want to explain that I don't believe most of the other
Prophecies people see as the same as the Sixth Seal actually are.
People like to talk about a frequent Prophetic pattern of "Signs in the sun, moon and stars", which may or may not also feature an Earthquake. But they're all actually pretty specific on those signs, and their not all the same. And the Sixth Seal is NOT the only time in Revelation there are signs involving the sun, moon and stars, and certainly not the only Earthquake.
Only two other Bible passages refer to the Moon becoming like Blood. Joel 2:31, and Acts 2 where Peter Quotes that part of Joel. I'll get to the significance of that latter.
Isaiah 13:10 says that neither the sun, moon or stars will give their light. People act like this is effectively the same, but not only are they not, they're mutually exclusive. If the Moon has a visible color it is giving light. Joel has two verses interestingly that do describe that kind of event, one in a context I believe places it between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets. The others in Joel chapter 3 along with Isaiah 13 I think refers to the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath, when the Kingdom of The Beast is darkened.
Matthew 24 and Mark 13's account of The Rapture speak also of both the Sun and Moon not giving light (no Blood Moon). Here stars also fall, but it's still distinct. The event is also linked to a Trumpet, not to a Seal. The Sixth Seal doesn't mention lightening either.
These aren't referring to Lunar and Solar Eclipses, since they're happening simultaneously. Dr. Robert Thieme tells us of the eruption on August 27th 1883, there were Earthquakes and tidal waves. And also that because of the volcanic ash the sun was blotted out and the moon looked red.
I love how Pre-Wraht people tend to argue against the idea of a Lunar Eclipse being described here. but will also use the concept of what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying that the Moon turning like Blood can be the same as it being Darkened.
Even if it is valid to see the Cosmic Signs aspect of the Olivtie Discourse as having some connection to the Sixth Seal. It's clearly to me only that the Sixth Seal begins those kinds of signs. Pre-Wrath people want to dogmatically build doctrine on placing The Rapture in the Sixth Seal based on it having a small subsets of the Rapture related signs, signs that are not in Paul's Rapture accounts at all. The far more universal defining features (Trumpet, Voices in Heaven, Son of Man coming on a Cloud, Resurrection of The Death, Harvest imagery) Are not in the Sixth Seal, their Revelation parallels are in chapters 11-14.
I believe firmly that Joel 2:28-32 and the Sixth Seal are the same.
People like to talk about a frequent Prophetic pattern of "Signs in the sun, moon and stars", which may or may not also feature an Earthquake. But they're all actually pretty specific on those signs, and their not all the same. And the Sixth Seal is NOT the only time in Revelation there are signs involving the sun, moon and stars, and certainly not the only Earthquake.
Only two other Bible passages refer to the Moon becoming like Blood. Joel 2:31, and Acts 2 where Peter Quotes that part of Joel. I'll get to the significance of that latter.
Isaiah 13:10 says that neither the sun, moon or stars will give their light. People act like this is effectively the same, but not only are they not, they're mutually exclusive. If the Moon has a visible color it is giving light. Joel has two verses interestingly that do describe that kind of event, one in a context I believe places it between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets. The others in Joel chapter 3 along with Isaiah 13 I think refers to the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath, when the Kingdom of The Beast is darkened.
Matthew 24 and Mark 13's account of The Rapture speak also of both the Sun and Moon not giving light (no Blood Moon). Here stars also fall, but it's still distinct. The event is also linked to a Trumpet, not to a Seal. The Sixth Seal doesn't mention lightening either.
These aren't referring to Lunar and Solar Eclipses, since they're happening simultaneously. Dr. Robert Thieme tells us of the eruption on August 27th 1883, there were Earthquakes and tidal waves. And also that because of the volcanic ash the sun was blotted out and the moon looked red.
I love how Pre-Wraht people tend to argue against the idea of a Lunar Eclipse being described here. but will also use the concept of what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying that the Moon turning like Blood can be the same as it being Darkened.
Even if it is valid to see the Cosmic Signs aspect of the Olivtie Discourse as having some connection to the Sixth Seal. It's clearly to me only that the Sixth Seal begins those kinds of signs. Pre-Wrath people want to dogmatically build doctrine on placing The Rapture in the Sixth Seal based on it having a small subsets of the Rapture related signs, signs that are not in Paul's Rapture accounts at all. The far more universal defining features (Trumpet, Voices in Heaven, Son of Man coming on a Cloud, Resurrection of The Death, Harvest imagery) Are not in the Sixth Seal, their Revelation parallels are in chapters 11-14.
I believe firmly that Joel 2:28-32 and the Sixth Seal are the same.
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Now
no Earthquake is mentioned in Joel. But Peter in quoting this in
reference to his time clearly sees the basis for the Sun being Darkened
in the Darkness that happened when Jesus was on The Cross, and there was
an Earthquake there. Clearly this event in Peter's day was only a
lesser near fulfillment. Revelation 6 sees a worldwide Earthquake, that
rearranges Terrestrial geography like something from The Silmarillion
or the Akallabêth.
Remember that the Chapter divisions are not part of the original text. So Revelation commentaries, and weeks long Bible Studies always separate the Sixth Seal from Revelation 7 and the sealing of the 144,000. But when we remember to look at this in the Context of Joel and Acts, it seems to me that this is in fact still the same event, even if some time has passed.
The concept of believers being Sealed is discussed outside Revelation in Paule's Epistles. In 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30. All of them sound to me like their about conditions unique to The Church, that don't apply to Pre or Post Church Age believers. So I reject allegorizeing the 144,000, I believe their specific people living at a specific time, and that specific number, or each of the 12 Tribes. Not simply representing the entire Church. But I do believe their part of The Church. They're also described in chapter 14 in terms that sound a lot like The Bride of Christ to me.
To the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view this must be after The Church age has ended. To the Pre-Wrath view this is right where it ends. But I see it far more likely that this is still during the Church Age, but near it's end. A sort of Culmination or Climax. One Last Great Outpouring of The Holy Spirit, greater even then the original at the Pentecost of 30 A.D. (Maybe this will also be linked to the Passover-Pentacost season). So the Church Age can end like how it started. I reject the common Baptist view that the Spiritual Gifts were only until the Canon was complete, but I'm not strictly a Pentecostal since my Soterolgoy is Baptist. And I'm certainly not Charismatic.
Some have decided to claim all of the 144,000 will be male, because their described as men. Greek and Hebrew did NOT use any word for both of the meanings we use "man" for. The 144,000 are Anthropos, which means Man as in Mankind, the Human Race. Typically the Greek stand in for Adam, but also for Enos. So not only can they include women, but Joel saying "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" tells us that clearly many (maybe exactly half) will be. I would not rule out Transgender and Intersex individuals either.
So like the first outpouring this finale one will be initially upon The House of Israel. 12,000 of each of the 12 Tribes.
Because it follows the Fifth Seal, which shows the Martyrs of all persecutions of The Church, who we see again in chapter 7, but in the context of the finale great persecution. I believe this happens after we've already entered the major World Wide persecution of Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:9-14. So the usage of the term "Great Tribulation" tells us nothing about timing, as I have another study on.
There will be a falling away as Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 when this happens, because in The West we'll be unprepared for Persecution. Some of those who recant and leave may be people who weren't really saved but just nominal Christians, in the Church only because they were raised in it, or some other convenient reason. But I don't believe it's impossible for truly Saved people to fall away. They could lose their inheritance because of this but not their Salvation. I recommend Chuck Missler's explanation of Hebrews 6.
But regardless of those problems, The Church has also historically grown under persecution. So while at first we react badly, in time I believe we will grow from it. So I think possibly most or even all of these 144,000 will be individuals Saved after this persecution started. So the witness of those Martyrs faithful unto death won't be in vain.
I do not believe the Multitude is already Raptured/Resurrected in Chapter 7. That their now wearing White Ropes isn't enough. I'd expect certain more specific poetic imagery if that was the case. The kind of terminology that is used in the 144,000 when they reappear in Chapter 14, of being the First Fruits and Redeemed out of The Earth. Perry Stone says the Bema Seat Judgement must have already happened here. How come no one has crowns then Perry? Their all martyrs so they should all have at least a Crown of Life. The Bema Judgment happens after the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet.
The account of The Sixth Seal is the only time the word "Wrath" occurs before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. And the problem is you can't build Doctrine on dialogue uttered by fallible human beings who aren't anointed Prophets of God.
That hermeneutic is of course lost on many people, there are teachers out there building doctrine on the things Jobs' idiot friends said, or justifying referring to Joseph as Jesus's father because Mary did in Luke 2 when Jesus was 12. The Bible is an infallible Book, but it still records humans saying very wrong things.
The Sixth Seal is one of the more recognizable parts of Revelation. My first memory as a small child of hearing anything from Revelation quoted is when watching the movie Ghost Busters, where Ray (Dan Aykroyd) recites it (getting the chapter it's in wrong). The world I believe will recognize the Sixth Seal when it happens. but they may not exactly get what it means right, and many Bible Prophecy teachers who are Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath, or even Post-Trib are only helping to get people confused on what it means.
Joel 2:31 says this is BEFORE the Day of The LORD, not during it, or on it, or right when it starts, Before.
It's after the Seventh Trumpet is sounded we first see voice sin heaven declaring that God's Wrath is at hand. And then again in Chapter 14.
Only the Seven Bowls are defined as being God's Wrath. Trumpets are Biblically, among other things, warnings. The sounding of Trumpets was the warning before the fall of Jericho. The judgments from the Trumpets are merely lesser warning shots. The Seven Bowls dwarf them.
Joel 2:1-16 I believe describe the last two Trumpets, and very much back up my viewing the Seventh as The Rapture, and hence my Mid-Tribulation view. We will NOT go through God's Wrath.
I believe Revelation shows us how to fit all other Prophecy together, so that Joel might seem to contradict Revelation's order isn't an issue. Joel was given a vitally important glimpse but not the whole picture. Joel 2:23 talks of the former rain and the latter rain. These I believe are the two great outpouring of The Holy Spirit at the beginning and culmination of The Church Age. I think it is also this that prompts Joels' vision to look back before what was just described. But then Joel 3 returns to the Day of Wrath.
To add additional support to the idea that the Cosmic and Terrestrial disturbances when Jesus was on the Cross were a type of those that occur at the Sixth Seal, I'd point to Joshua 10.
In verses 12 and 13 the Sun and Moon aren't darkened or turned to a different color. But usual behavior with them occurs. But the Key is verse 17-18. "But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.And Joshua said, Roll great stones upon the mouth of the cave, and set men by it for to keep them: " Sounds like a parallel to "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us".
But latter, those Five Kings are hung on trees in verse 26. Not Strangled with a rope like you might assume, Biblical execution requires Bloodshed as shown by Genesis 9. No the logical conclusion is they were Crucified. And verse 27 "And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day."
In Esther, Haman was hanged (also really Crucifixion, the Persians are the ones usually credited with inventing it) on the 17th of Nisan, and his sons on the 14th of Adar. Jesus was made Sin for us. Even though he was completely without Sin, God poured out his Wrath upon him as if he where just as Evil as Haman or Hitler.
Remember that the Chapter divisions are not part of the original text. So Revelation commentaries, and weeks long Bible Studies always separate the Sixth Seal from Revelation 7 and the sealing of the 144,000. But when we remember to look at this in the Context of Joel and Acts, it seems to me that this is in fact still the same event, even if some time has passed.
The concept of believers being Sealed is discussed outside Revelation in Paule's Epistles. In 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30. All of them sound to me like their about conditions unique to The Church, that don't apply to Pre or Post Church Age believers. So I reject allegorizeing the 144,000, I believe their specific people living at a specific time, and that specific number, or each of the 12 Tribes. Not simply representing the entire Church. But I do believe their part of The Church. They're also described in chapter 14 in terms that sound a lot like The Bride of Christ to me.
To the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view this must be after The Church age has ended. To the Pre-Wrath view this is right where it ends. But I see it far more likely that this is still during the Church Age, but near it's end. A sort of Culmination or Climax. One Last Great Outpouring of The Holy Spirit, greater even then the original at the Pentecost of 30 A.D. (Maybe this will also be linked to the Passover-Pentacost season). So the Church Age can end like how it started. I reject the common Baptist view that the Spiritual Gifts were only until the Canon was complete, but I'm not strictly a Pentecostal since my Soterolgoy is Baptist. And I'm certainly not Charismatic.
Some have decided to claim all of the 144,000 will be male, because their described as men. Greek and Hebrew did NOT use any word for both of the meanings we use "man" for. The 144,000 are Anthropos, which means Man as in Mankind, the Human Race. Typically the Greek stand in for Adam, but also for Enos. So not only can they include women, but Joel saying "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" tells us that clearly many (maybe exactly half) will be. I would not rule out Transgender and Intersex individuals either.
So like the first outpouring this finale one will be initially upon The House of Israel. 12,000 of each of the 12 Tribes.
Because it follows the Fifth Seal, which shows the Martyrs of all persecutions of The Church, who we see again in chapter 7, but in the context of the finale great persecution. I believe this happens after we've already entered the major World Wide persecution of Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:9-14. So the usage of the term "Great Tribulation" tells us nothing about timing, as I have another study on.
There will be a falling away as Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 when this happens, because in The West we'll be unprepared for Persecution. Some of those who recant and leave may be people who weren't really saved but just nominal Christians, in the Church only because they were raised in it, or some other convenient reason. But I don't believe it's impossible for truly Saved people to fall away. They could lose their inheritance because of this but not their Salvation. I recommend Chuck Missler's explanation of Hebrews 6.
But regardless of those problems, The Church has also historically grown under persecution. So while at first we react badly, in time I believe we will grow from it. So I think possibly most or even all of these 144,000 will be individuals Saved after this persecution started. So the witness of those Martyrs faithful unto death won't be in vain.
I do not believe the Multitude is already Raptured/Resurrected in Chapter 7. That their now wearing White Ropes isn't enough. I'd expect certain more specific poetic imagery if that was the case. The kind of terminology that is used in the 144,000 when they reappear in Chapter 14, of being the First Fruits and Redeemed out of The Earth. Perry Stone says the Bema Seat Judgement must have already happened here. How come no one has crowns then Perry? Their all martyrs so they should all have at least a Crown of Life. The Bema Judgment happens after the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet.
The account of The Sixth Seal is the only time the word "Wrath" occurs before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. And the problem is you can't build Doctrine on dialogue uttered by fallible human beings who aren't anointed Prophets of God.
That hermeneutic is of course lost on many people, there are teachers out there building doctrine on the things Jobs' idiot friends said, or justifying referring to Joseph as Jesus's father because Mary did in Luke 2 when Jesus was 12. The Bible is an infallible Book, but it still records humans saying very wrong things.
The Sixth Seal is one of the more recognizable parts of Revelation. My first memory as a small child of hearing anything from Revelation quoted is when watching the movie Ghost Busters, where Ray (Dan Aykroyd) recites it (getting the chapter it's in wrong). The world I believe will recognize the Sixth Seal when it happens. but they may not exactly get what it means right, and many Bible Prophecy teachers who are Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath, or even Post-Trib are only helping to get people confused on what it means.
Joel 2:31 says this is BEFORE the Day of The LORD, not during it, or on it, or right when it starts, Before.
It's after the Seventh Trumpet is sounded we first see voice sin heaven declaring that God's Wrath is at hand. And then again in Chapter 14.
Only the Seven Bowls are defined as being God's Wrath. Trumpets are Biblically, among other things, warnings. The sounding of Trumpets was the warning before the fall of Jericho. The judgments from the Trumpets are merely lesser warning shots. The Seven Bowls dwarf them.
Joel 2:1-16 I believe describe the last two Trumpets, and very much back up my viewing the Seventh as The Rapture, and hence my Mid-Tribulation view. We will NOT go through God's Wrath.
I believe Revelation shows us how to fit all other Prophecy together, so that Joel might seem to contradict Revelation's order isn't an issue. Joel was given a vitally important glimpse but not the whole picture. Joel 2:23 talks of the former rain and the latter rain. These I believe are the two great outpouring of The Holy Spirit at the beginning and culmination of The Church Age. I think it is also this that prompts Joels' vision to look back before what was just described. But then Joel 3 returns to the Day of Wrath.
To add additional support to the idea that the Cosmic and Terrestrial disturbances when Jesus was on the Cross were a type of those that occur at the Sixth Seal, I'd point to Joshua 10.
In verses 12 and 13 the Sun and Moon aren't darkened or turned to a different color. But usual behavior with them occurs. But the Key is verse 17-18. "But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.And Joshua said, Roll great stones upon the mouth of the cave, and set men by it for to keep them: " Sounds like a parallel to "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us".
But latter, those Five Kings are hung on trees in verse 26. Not Strangled with a rope like you might assume, Biblical execution requires Bloodshed as shown by Genesis 9. No the logical conclusion is they were Crucified. And verse 27 "And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day."
In Esther, Haman was hanged (also really Crucifixion, the Persians are the ones usually credited with inventing it) on the 17th of Nisan, and his sons on the 14th of Adar. Jesus was made Sin for us. Even though he was completely without Sin, God poured out his Wrath upon him as if he where just as Evil as Haman or Hitler.
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