Revelation Chapter 6 and the Non Signs

I apologize that this post shall in some sense be repeating some stuff I covered early in the Blog's history, but it shall also reflect some things I've changed my mind on and is a good reintroduction to how to refute the "Pre-Wrath" view of Chris White.

The basic error of their view is identifying The Parousia in Revelation using the characteristics of it from the Olivte Discourse that are the least unique to the Parousia and also least important to defining what the Parousia is.

The thesis of this post is that all of Revelation Chapter 6 (the first 6 seals) correlates to the "Non Signs" or "Beginnings of Sorrows" portion of the Olivite Discourse.

Matthew 24:4-8, Mark 13:5-8 and Luke 21:8-11 is what Chuck Missler liked to call the "Non Signs" portion of the Olivite discourse.  Jesus specifically said "that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet."  Chris White however continues to obsess over insisting these are End Times specific events (he specifically argues they are the first half of the "70th Week").  But that is willful disregard of what Jesus specifically told us.

In Matthew 24 the persecution refereed to happens after the era of these non signs, in Luke 21 it is said to happen before them (Luke's I believe is about the Jewish in origin persecutions depicted in Acts) and in Mark 13 this persecution seems to be happening at the same time.  Mark is about the many persecutions Christians have faced in the last 2000s years, (even after the West became Christian in other regions persecution continued, especially for the "Nestorian" Church.)  Only Matthew is about a specifically End Times global persecution that might be carried out by the "Antichrist" but it might be the "Antichrist" will present himself as "saving" Christians from it.  And that is how I feel the Fifth Seal factors in.

I used to disagree with associating the Non Signs with the Four Horsemen because I understood this fact and I used to believe the Four Horsemen are specifically end times.  But I have come to take what can be considered a Historicist view of Revelation 6.  My overall view of Revelation remains Futurist because, well I'm open minded on the first 4 Trumpets (chapter 8 is more plausible to interpret histrionically then chapter 9) but the Seventh is definitely yet Future, the Seventh Trumpet is the Last Trump, that I still strongly believe.  But one element of the Non Signs is missing when you make them just the Four Horsemen, the Earthquakes.

The "Pre-Wrath" view of Chris White and some other views I've seem argued for, insist the Sixth Seal is the Rapture because Matthew 24:29 refers to an Earthquake and the Sun being darkened and stars falling from heaven.  In Revelation the Sixth Seal is the first time those three things happen but it's not the last.  And in Matthew 24 this is NOT the first reference to Earthquakes.  Also The Sixth Seal doesn't talk about lighting or thunder.

The Earthquake of Matthew 24:29 I view as the Earthquake of the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11:19, and maybe the Ark being seen in Heaven is the Sign of the Son of Man of Matthew 24:30.  The stars falling from Heaven is what the Dragon's tail does in Chapter 12, the start of Chapter 12 is also what I believe Luke's "Signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars" refers to.  And the Sun and Moon were already darkened in the 4th Trumpet.

Actually I have now realized Matthew 24:29 does NOT even refer to an Earthquake, that word is in the three Olivte Discourse passages only during the Beginnings of Sorrows.  At the Parousia it's the powers in heaven that are shaken, which I think is an allusion to Revelation 12's War in Heaven.  I do believe an Earthquake happens at the time of the Parousia because of where I place it in Revelation, but there is in fact no Olivte Discourse basis for that.

Revelation 11 also clearly tells us that Wrath does NOT come till after the Seventh Trumpet.  So when the Kings of the Earth think Wrath has arrived in Revelation 6:15-17 they are wrong and mistaken and indeed not heeding what Jesus said about the Non Signs.

No account of the Olvite Disocurse refers to the Moon becoming Blood, Blood is a BRIGHT shade of Red so the Moon being darkened CANNOT be the same thing.  Only three verses of Scripture refer to the Moon becoming like Blood, the Sixth Seal, Joel 2 and Acts 2 when Peter quotes Joel 2.

Joel 2 says the Sun will be darkened and the Moon become like Blood BEFORE the Day of the LORD, not on or during but BEFORE.  And Peter is referring to this prophecy as having already been fulfilled in some way by Pentecost, presumably by the Earthquake and Darkening of the Sun associated with the Crucifixion.

So I don't think the Sixth Seal is about a singular event, it's a Prophecy of every-time people mistakenly think the End is Nigh because of perfectly common events like Earthquakes, shooting stars and Eclipses.  Earthquakes are often accompanied by volcanoes and there are accounts of volcanic eruptions making the Sun look dark and the Moon look red.

I've seen an argument that these kings of the Earth saying "hide us from the face of Him that sits on the Throne" is proof they are seeing the Parousia right now.  But again Jesus warns of there being people who will think the Parousia has happened or is happening but it isn't.  The fact that a lot Christian are forgetting to factor into all this is that now over half the world's population believes in the Biblical God and Jesus in some capacity at least nominally.

So again we can't build doctrine on the testimony of fallible mortals.

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls.

I didn't grow up being taught any particular view of the End Times, I'm one of those who never knew what the Rapture (or really Secret Rapture) was until the Left Behind books became a pop culture phenomenon.

In my first memories of reading the Book of Revelation, I was admittedly skimming it over and not digesting most of the details.  But while much I didn't understand, it's chronology never confused me.  It seemed clearly like John was being shown a sequence of events, mostly in Heaven but to varying degrees correlating to events on Earth.

I never bought Pre-Trib.  For a long time, until not long before I created  this blog, I was essentially Post-Trib.  But what caused me to become alienated from mainstream Post-Trib was how they scrambled the Chronology of Revelation.  But at least they're not like Pre-Wrath saying their view is Chronological when it clearly is not.

But my personal perspective aside, there are clear textual reasons why the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are clearly threes sequences that follow each other and can't in any way be happening at the same time.

Revelation 8 begins with the Seventh Seal being opened and then clearly depicts the Seven Trumpets being given to their angels as a result of the Seventh Seal being opened.

Revelation 11:15-18 begins to describe what happens when the Seventh Trumpet is sounded.  And one statement is "Thy Wrath is Come".  In context what the grammar and meanings of these words is saying in both Greek and King James English is NOW his Wrath is Come at the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet, Biblically trumpets are warnings and this was the last warning.

Pre-Tribbers and Pre-Wrathers (and also Post-Tribbers) want to insist we were already in God's Wrath at least in the Trumpets because "obviously that's God's Wrath".  But that isn't sound doctrine.  Releasing demonic entities in Revelation 9 isn't God's Wrath.

The Bowls are defined as God's Wrath, so not even one could have been poured out before the Seventh Trumpet.

The only time Wrath is mentioned before the Seventh Trumpet is sounded is in Chapter 6, after the Sixth Seal is opened.  And it's not the narrative voice, or God, or anyone in Heaven, or any Prophet saying it.  It was said by the kings and other powerful men of the Earth.  They think this is God's Wrath.

In Anime analysis videos much is made of how things in early episodes are meant to take on a new meaning when re-watched.  Well this part of Revelation chapter 6 I think has a similar effect.  That these worldly people think they are already in God's Wrath is hilarious when you know what's coming, they have no idea.

And I have another post on that it's perfectly fine to view some plagues as happening more then once.

The Eschatological significance of The Spring Feasts

It is popularly said the Spring Feast of Leviticus 23 were fulfilled in the First Advent and the Fall Feasts will be the Second Advent.  And that is mostly true, but the Fall Feasts do come up in the Gospel narrative.

Jesus' Crucifixion is the most important fulfillment of Passover.  But I think it has post shadowings as well as foreshadowings.  In the Book of Acts, Passover (incorrectly translated Easter once in the KJV) and Unleavened Bread continue to come up well after the Pentecost on which The Church was born.

This is a follow up of sorts to my recent post on the Fall Feasts.  That was focused on the Midway Point, this post will deal with how the Week begins and ends.  So like The Godfather Part II it is a prequel and a sequel at the same time.

I shall interpret the time periods from Revelation 11-13 (I'll mention Daniel's too, but I no longer feel Daniel's need to be Eschatological).  The math I did with my current 2030-2037 theory in mind, but I did similar calculations before with other years.  I encourage you to do your own calculations.

Revelation 11:1-2 says Jerusalem will be trodden under the foot of the Gentiles for 42 months.  Many have come up with all kinds of convoluted explanations of what that means, but using Scripture to interpret Scripture this is explained by Luke 21:24 as clearly an expression of military occupation.

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." and the next verse is the Second Coming and The Rapture.  Luke 21:20 through the first part of this verse I believe was fulfilled in 70 AD and Revelation 11 is the last part of the times of the gentiles.  But if it has a second fulfillment in the End Times, I believe it is at the start of the week not the midway point.

After the Two Witnesses are resurrected and ascend into heaven the people of the city (who we were told at the start are mostly gentiles) will believe and praise God, then the Last Trumpet sounds.  That is when the Fullness of the Gentiles are come in (Romans 11:25).

The 42 months I don't think necessarily need to be fulfilled to the day, they're broadly the same time period as the 1260 days but different in the specifics.  42 months before Yom Teruah takes us to (assuming there is a second Adar in there) the New Moon of Nisan three and a half years before.  Allowing wiggle room the siege could happen a little before or after.

The possibly that something will happen in the last month before the Week begins is logical, in the last month of the year the Barley Harvest is what lets Israel know the next New Moon will be the New Year.  Ezra 6:15 tells us the Second Temple was finished on the 3rd of Adar.  It is possible the Third Temple will be finished right before the Week begins, but I also think it possible it could last awhile before it begins.

The Two Witnesses will be killed three and a half days before Yom Teruah.  1260 days before that takes us to about, depending on when the proceeding Barley Harvest is, either the 7th of Nisan or 7th of Iyar.  Ezra 3:8 tells us Iyar was when Zeubabel and Jeshua began their work, they are considered types of the Two Witnesses so the Witnesses beginning their ministry in Iyar makes sense.  The 7th of Nisan is traditionally conjectured from the narrative of Joshua to be when his two spies were sent into Jericho, they too are types of the Witnesses.

I've argued before that the 1290 days are the first half of the Week not the second as usually assumed.  I've gone back and forth on if the Abomination of Desolation should begin or end it.    Either way what does happen at the beginning is the sacrifice and oblation being taken away.

If the 1290 days end on Yom Teruah then they could begin about either the 10th of Nisan or exactly a month before.    I could also see when they end being 10 days before or 10 days after.  If the earlier month for this is what happens it'd be the same with the Two Witnesses, and visa versa.  The 10th of Nisan I think will be important either way.

My theory on the first 6 seals is they happen very quickly in the Nisan that begins the Week.  The White Horseman might be the Antichrist before his death, or might be an anitchrist and/or a decoy antichrist.  Christians who want to co-opt the Rabbinic concept of Messiah Ben-Joseph as someone separate from Jesus could easily see that figure in the White Horseman.  The other three horseman will ride at about the same time, maybe as his allies or maybe as his enemies.

Whatever identity for him is true, I think he'll have his own Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem on the 10th of Nisan.  Maybe as someone many Jews and Christians will accept as a Messiah, or maybe as a conqueror.  And then maybe given a Crown on the 14th of Nisan.  And maybe killed on either the 14th or 26th of Nisan.  Cause either way for most of the first half of the Week the First Beast isn't a factor.

The Fifth Seal is a heavenly event, it shows all Martyrs of the Church, not just victims of a specific persecution.  But it's opening could still correlate to a specific persecution, like the one Jesus described in Matthew 24:9-14.

I've argued before that the Sixth Seal will open on the 14th of Nisan based on it's connection to Acts 2 and Joel 2 making the Earthquake and Darkness when Jesus was on The Cross it's near fulfillment.

I had argued then the 144,000 are sealed in Revelation 7 on Pentecost, I still feel they're connected to Pentecost but they're also called the First fruits in Revelation 14 so I now think their sealing will begin on First Fruits.

In one Seventh Trumpet post I talked about how Jewish custom has the Last Trump on Yom Teruh and the First Trumpet on Pentecost.  Connecting Trumpets to Pentecost is justified by Exodus 19-20 where in the third month when the Decalogue was given on Pentecost the Trumpets were sounded.

I think on the Pentecost following the start of the Week the 144,00 will be saved sparking a massive revival, the latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit, a repeat of the Pentecost of Acts 2.  Their Prayers will fill the golden Censor in the Heavenly Temple, it'll be thrown into the Earth causing more Earthquakes and thunder and lighting.  Then the Trumpets will be given to their Angels and the first will sound burning up the green grass and trees right as the Harvest season is starting.

I have no theories yet on when the 2nd-4th Trumpets will sound.  I have a post where I discus the timing of the Fifth and Sixth Trumpets.  Where I conjecture the Five Months the locust torment men will end on the 17th of Nisan, the day Jesus Rose, and Haman was hanged.

The text of Daniel 12 does not in any explicit way link the end of the 1290 days to the Sacrifices being restored.   It could be they're are restored 2300 mornings and evenings (1250 days, about 37 lunar months, 3 years) after their taken away, like Daniel tells us was the case with Antiochus' Abomination.  But in this case that wouldn't end on Hanukkah but in the Nisan that starts year four of the week.  Or perhaps they never will be restored.

If one insists the 1290 days need to be the second half.  If they begin on Yom Teruh they could end on the last day of Unleavened Bread, if they begin on Yom Kippur they could end on the New Moon of Iyar.  Either way fitting what I already suspect that when the Week is over the Israelites won't be able to observe Passover at the proper time and will need to delay to Second Passover.  If they begin three and a half, seven or ten days before Yom Teruah.  Still not quite allowing everything to be cleansed in time for a proper Passover.

The 42 months the Beast is allowed to continue, if they begin in early Tishri or late Elul would end in about Adar, again not needing to be fulfilled to the day.  Purim is when the sons of Haman were hanged.

The 1260 days Israel (The Woman) is in the wilderness begins right after The Rapture, even if they were fleeing in a sense already from the Abomination before.  1260 days from Yom Teruah takes us to about the 20th or 21st of Adar, and 1260 days from Yom Kippur takes us to about the end of Adar and Beginning of Nisan.  This is when their Messiah, a namesake of Joshua, will lead them into the Promised Land from Edom, as shown in Isaiah 63.

I think we need to consider that how the Armageddon reference in the 6th Bowl ties into Revelation 19 isn't quite what we assume.  And also that Satan being sealed in the Abyss is not the same day as Revelation 19 either.

I now respond to Post-Tribbers who say everyone else believes in more then one Second Comings by pointing out that Revelation 19 is never Biblically defined as the Second Coming.  Revelation 14 is where the Greek word Paursia is used.

Zechariah 12-14 is one vision but it has pieces, 9-11 are a separate vision.  Chapter 12 has the reference to Meggido/Armageddon, Chapter 13 has a possible illusion to the Idol Shepherd of chapter 11 being dealt with, and I think maybe the two thirds who are cut off and die are the armies following the Beast in Revelation 19 not Israelites as people often assume, two thirds of all gentiles, or the world's total population.

And Chapter 14 depicts Jerusalem still under siege, perhaps from Satan directly this time.  And Jesus Second Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives.  This one will also be on the 10th of Nisan, this time He'll be riding on a White Horse.  And given a Coronation on the 14th or 15th of Nisan. And perhaps raise from the dead whoever among the saved are still not yet raised on First Fruits (Ezekiel 37). So this Nisan will be important even though the Passover won't be kept till the following month.

The 1335 days is the one number form Daniel I'm most certain on.  It begins on the Yom Teruah that finished Revelation 11 and ends early in Sivan.  There is a strong possibility of it ending on Pentecost or the Sabbath the day before Pentecost.  No matter what the next Sunday after will be the Biblical date of Pentecost.

Pentecost as the day the Church Age began, and the Day Israel as born as a Nation with the giving of the Covenant in Exodus 19-20, fits perfectly as the day to formally begin The Millennium, or the Government that will rule The Millennium and a little after.  Because as I said before the only event that happens right when the Thousand years expire is Satan being released.  So I think the end of the 1335 days will be when Satan is bound in The Abyss.

Will the Spring Feats have relevance after The Millennium?  Well I think Satan will be released the same day he was bound, on if not near Pentecost.  I have a hunch the Gog and Magog war will involves the 17th of Tammuz, 9th of Ave and 3rd of Tishi, because God said in Zechariah he'd make their Fast Days joyous celebrations.

Seven years after 3rd of Tishri fits what I said on the Fall Feasts about New Jerusalem and Tabernacles.  Seven months later may mean they'll be finished cleaning up the dead bodies after Passover and need to do one last Second Passover.

So that is my view of the End Times relevance of the Spring Feasts.

Moon being like Blood and not giving Light are not the same thing

They are mutually exclusive.

Pre-Wrathers keep referring to the "Celestial disturbance event" as if there is only one.  Revelation has multiple celestial disturbance events, and Pre-Wrathers claim to like me interpret Revelation Chronologically, or at least that the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are successive judgments not different looks at the same thing like Post-Tribbers tend to.

They want to see references outside Revelation to the Moon being darkened as being the Sixth Seal, even though the Moon isn't darkened there.  Later the Sun, Moon and Stars are partially darkened by the 4th Trumpet event, then for 40s days the sun, moon and stars are fully blacked out in the 5th Trumpet event by the smoke.  Then later the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath is what I believe Isaiah 13 means by the Sun and Moon not giving their light at the time Babylon falls in Revelation 18.

Every Pre-Wrather I know is against the Blood Moon theory, Chris White's debunking of it I've recommended repeatedly.  Yet they use the modern Scientific explanation for what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying the Moon being like Blood and not giving light are the same.

During a Lunar Eclipse the Moon is darker then usual but it is giving light, it is only on a Solar Eclipse or New Moon (day before the Biblical New Moon) that the Moon gives no light, if you want to look for a normal astronomical event for that.

If the Moon has any color at all it is by definition giving light.  There is no Color without light.

Here is the thing though, Blood is actually a very bright red.  And when I was observing the last of the overly hyped Tetrad a few days ago I kept feeling it was not a shade of Red I'd describe as like Blood at all.

What's funny is the Full Moon a month prior to this, at the end of August looked inexplicably Red, and I know others observed the same thing.  That was a shade of Red I'd consider Blood Red, but there was no Lunar Eclipse that day.  I still don't understand what caused that.

If there is a naturalistic explanation at all for what happens to the Sun and Moon in the Sixth Seal it is probably ash entering the air form a Volcanic Eruption, which has been documented to cause the Moon to look bright Red in the past.  The reason that happens is all about the light the Moon is giving.  And Joel 2's account of this event clearly alludes to Volcanoes.

But even accepting that flawed logic for saying a Blood Moon could be a darkened moon.  That doesn't change that there are other places in Revelation far more explicitly about the Moon being darkened.  Yet Pre-Wrath and other mistaken views are dependent on insisting that the Moon being darkened in Matthew 24 can ONLY correspond to the Sixth Seal.

This post is elaborating on things I said in my first Sixth Seal post.  And also ties into this post.

Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs

This may well be one of this blogs most rehashed subjects, since Pre-Wrath is the Rapture view I kind of feel most compelled to refute (Pre-Trib and Post-Tribs problems are well known).  And this issue is the foundation of the Pre-Wrath argument.  While I've addressed it before it's always while dealing with other things too.  So here I shall lay things out.

Matthew 24:27-24 refers to the following Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs.

1. Lightning
2. Earthquake
3. Sun being darkened
4. Moon does not giver her light
5. Stars falling from Heaven to the Earth

3 and 4 should perhaps be grouped together as the same sign.  But why I need to separate them here will become apparent.

Pre-Wrathers correctly say 2, 3, 5 correspond to the 6th Seal events in Revelation 6.  But they ignore 1.

They insist 4 is the same as the Moon being like Blood.  It's funny because Pre-Wrathers are often the most hostile to the Blood Moon hype prompted by Mark Blitz, pointing out the very solid reasons Blood Moon references can't be referring to Lunar eclipses.  Yet will at the same time use the science behind Lunar eclipses to suggest the Moon being darkened and looking Blood Red can be the same thing.

What is said in Matthew 24:29 is the moon gives no light.  Color=Light, that's how it works.  If anything I feel like what Jesus is describing (if it should be tied to any possible natural astronomical phenomenon at all), is a Total Solar Eclipse.  The Sun is Darkened from the Earth's view because it's Blocked by the Moon, and the Moon receives no Sunlight to reflect.

While I agree a Lunar Eclipse does not explain the 6th Seal/Joel/Acts 2 lunar event.  I do feel it will likely happen during a Full Moon, that would make the reddening effect most dramatic.  That I have other independent reasons for seeing this as happening on Passover is convenient.

It is known that Volcanic Eruptions sometimes cause the Moon to look Red also.  Which verifies the Joel/Acts connection, because other Joel terminology is also seen as alluding to volcanoes.

The 7th Seal in Revelation 11 includes lightning, thunder, hail and an earthquake in the very last verse.

The Chapter Divisions and even Verse divisions are NOT in the original text.  Revelation 12 begins with the word "and" Kai (kahee);  Conjunction, Strong #: 2532.  Which is translated and, also, even, indeed, likewise and so on.  It clearly means continuing from the prior events, or simultaneous with them.  The Revelation 12 events are clearly continuing the 7th Trumpet account, which is part of my argument against the way Post-Trib garbles the Chronology of Revelation.

12:4 describes stars falling to The Earth.  That is officially 3 out of 5, just as many as Pre-Wrathers can legitimately get for the 6th Seal.  Also the early part of Revelation 12 is the one place the word Harpazo is used in Revelation.

The Sun and Moon being Darkened could have in mind the 4th or 5th Trumpet events.  Or it could be the Darkening of the Sun and Moon is implied simply by events happening in Virgo being visible in the Heavens at a time when the Sun is in Virgo, which usually can't happen.

Meanwhile Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 does NOT refer to a Seal of a Scroll being Opened.  But he does refer to a Trumpet being sounded.  Which unlike these Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs is in both of Paul's main Rapture Passages.  And Possibly a 3rd in Hebrews.

Joel 2 begins with the 6th Trumpet, then describes the Sun and Moon being Darkened.  Then describes a Trumpet being sounded and The Rapture in verses 15-16.

The Sixth Seal

Revelation 6:12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

First of all, I want to explain that I don't believe most of the other Prophecies people see as the same as the Sixth Seal actually are.

People like to talk about a frequent Prophetic pattern of "Signs in the sun, moon and stars", which may or may not also feature an Earthquake. But they're all actually pretty specific on those signs, and their not all the same. And the Sixth Seal is NOT the only time in Revelation there are signs involving the sun, moon and stars, and certainly not the only Earthquake.

Only two other Bible passages refer to the Moon becoming like Blood. Joel 2:31, and Acts 2 where Peter Quotes that part of Joel. I'll get to the significance of that latter.

Isaiah 13:10 says that neither the sun, moon or stars will give their light. People act like this is effectively the same, but not only are they not, they're mutually exclusive. If the Moon has a visible color it is giving light. Joel has two verses interestingly that do describe that kind of event, one in a context I believe places it between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets. The others in Joel chapter 3 along with Isaiah 13 I think refers to the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath, when the Kingdom of The Beast is darkened.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13's account of The Rapture speak also of both the Sun and Moon not giving light (no Blood Moon). Here stars also fall, but it's still distinct.  The event is also linked to a Trumpet, not to a Seal.  The Sixth Seal doesn't mention lightening either.

These aren't referring to Lunar and Solar Eclipses, since they're happening simultaneously. Dr. Robert Thieme tells us of the eruption on August 27th 1883, there were Earthquakes and tidal waves. And also that because of the volcanic ash the sun was blotted out and the moon looked red.

I love how Pre-Wraht people tend to argue against the idea of a Lunar Eclipse being described here.  but will also use the concept of what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying that the Moon turning like Blood can be the same as it being Darkened.

Even if it is valid to see the Cosmic Signs aspect of the Olivtie Discourse as having some connection to the Sixth Seal.  It's clearly to me only that the Sixth Seal begins those kinds of signs.  Pre-Wrath people want to dogmatically build doctrine on placing The Rapture in the Sixth Seal based on it having a small subsets of the Rapture related signs, signs that are not in Paul's Rapture accounts at all.  The far more universal defining features (Trumpet, Voices in Heaven, Son of Man coming on a Cloud, Resurrection of The Death, Harvest imagery)  Are not in the Sixth Seal, their Revelation parallels are in chapters 11-14.

I believe firmly that Joel 2:28-32 and the Sixth Seal are the same.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Now no Earthquake is mentioned in Joel. But Peter in quoting this in reference to his time clearly sees the basis for the Sun being Darkened in the Darkness that happened when Jesus was on The Cross, and there was an Earthquake there. Clearly this event in Peter's day was only a lesser near fulfillment. Revelation 6 sees a worldwide Earthquake, that rearranges Terrestrial geography like something from The Silmarillion or the Akallabêth.

Remember that the Chapter divisions are not part of the original text. So Revelation commentaries, and weeks long Bible Studies always separate the Sixth Seal from Revelation 7 and the sealing of the 144,000. But when we remember to look at this in the Context of Joel and Acts, it seems to me that this is in fact still the same event, even if some time has passed.

The concept of believers being Sealed is discussed outside Revelation in Paule's Epistles. In 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30. All of them sound to me like their about conditions unique to The Church, that don't apply to Pre or Post Church Age believers. So I reject allegorizeing the 144,000, I believe their specific people living at a specific time, and that specific number, or each of the 12 Tribes. Not simply representing the entire Church. But I do believe their part of The Church. They're also described in chapter 14 in terms that sound a lot like The Bride of Christ to me.

To the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view this must be after The Church age has ended. To the Pre-Wrath view this is right where it ends. But I see it far more likely that this is still during the Church Age, but near it's end. A sort of Culmination or Climax. One Last Great Outpouring of The Holy Spirit, greater even then the original at the Pentecost of 30 A.D. (Maybe this will also be linked to the Passover-Pentacost season). So the Church Age can end like how it started. I reject the common Baptist view that the Spiritual Gifts were only until the Canon was complete, but I'm not strictly a Pentecostal since my Soterolgoy is Baptist. And I'm certainly not Charismatic.

Some have decided to claim all of the 144,000 will be male, because their described as men. Greek and Hebrew did NOT use any word for both of the meanings we use "man" for. The 144,000 are Anthropos, which means Man as in Mankind, the Human Race. Typically the Greek stand in for Adam, but also for Enos. So not only can they include women, but Joel saying "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" tells us that clearly many (maybe exactly half) will be. I would not rule out Transgender and Intersex individuals either.

So like the first outpouring this finale one will be initially upon The House of Israel. 12,000 of each of the 12 Tribes.

Because it follows the Fifth Seal, which shows the Martyrs of all persecutions of The Church, who we see again in chapter 7, but in the context of the finale great persecution. I believe this happens after we've already entered the major World Wide persecution of Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:9-14. So the usage of the term "Great Tribulation" tells us nothing about timing, as I have another study on.

There will be a falling away as Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 when this happens, because in The West we'll be unprepared for Persecution. Some of those who recant and leave may be people who weren't really saved but just nominal Christians, in the Church only because they were raised in it, or some other convenient reason. But I don't believe it's impossible for truly Saved people to fall away. They could lose their inheritance because of this but not their Salvation. I recommend Chuck Missler's explanation of Hebrews 6.

But regardless of those problems, The Church has also historically grown under persecution. So while at first we react badly, in time I believe we will grow from it. So I think possibly most or even all of these 144,000 will be individuals Saved after this persecution started. So the witness of those Martyrs faithful unto death won't be in vain.

I do not believe the Multitude is already Raptured/Resurrected in Chapter 7. That their now wearing White Ropes isn't enough. I'd expect certain more specific poetic imagery if that was the case. The kind of terminology that is used in the 144,000 when they reappear in Chapter 14, of being the First Fruits and Redeemed out of The Earth. Perry Stone says the Bema Seat Judgement must have already happened here. How come no one has crowns then Perry? Their all martyrs so they should all have at least a Crown of Life. The Bema Judgment happens after the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet.

The account of The Sixth Seal is the only time the word "Wrath" occurs before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. And the problem is you can't build Doctrine on dialogue uttered by fallible human beings who aren't anointed Prophets of God.

That hermeneutic is of course lost on many people, there are teachers out there building doctrine on the things Jobs' idiot friends said, or justifying referring to Joseph as Jesus's father because Mary did in Luke 2 when Jesus was 12. The Bible is an infallible Book, but it still records humans saying very wrong things.

The Sixth Seal is one of the more recognizable parts of Revelation. My first memory as a small child of hearing anything from Revelation quoted is when watching the movie Ghost Busters, where Ray (Dan Aykroyd) recites it (getting the chapter it's in wrong). The world I believe will recognize the Sixth Seal when it happens. but they may not exactly get what it means right, and many Bible Prophecy teachers who are Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath, or even Post-Trib are only helping to get people confused on what it means.

Joel 2:31 says this is BEFORE the Day of The LORD, not during it, or on it, or right when it starts, Before.

It's after the Seventh Trumpet is sounded we first see voice sin heaven declaring that God's Wrath is at hand. And then again in Chapter 14.

Only the Seven Bowls are defined as being God's Wrath. Trumpets are Biblically, among other things, warnings. The sounding of Trumpets was the warning before the fall of Jericho. The judgments from the Trumpets are merely lesser warning shots. The Seven Bowls dwarf them.

Joel 2:1-16 I believe describe the last two Trumpets, and very much back up my viewing the Seventh as The Rapture, and hence my Mid-Tribulation view. We will NOT go through God's Wrath.

I believe Revelation shows us how to fit all other Prophecy together, so that Joel might seem to contradict Revelation's order isn't an issue. Joel was given a vitally important glimpse but not the whole picture. Joel 2:23 talks of the former rain and the latter rain. These I believe are the two great outpouring of The Holy Spirit at the beginning and culmination of The Church Age. I think it is also this that prompts Joels' vision to look back before what was just described. But then Joel 3 returns to the Day of Wrath.

To add additional support to the idea that the Cosmic and Terrestrial disturbances when Jesus was on the Cross were a type of those that occur at the Sixth Seal, I'd point to Joshua 10.

In verses 12 and 13 the Sun and Moon aren't darkened or turned to a different color.  But usual behavior with them occurs.  But the Key is verse 17-18.  "But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.And Joshua said, Roll great stones upon the mouth of the cave, and set men by it for to keep them: "  Sounds like a parallel to "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us".

But latter, those Five Kings are hung on trees in verse 26.  Not Strangled with a rope like you might assume, Biblical execution requires Bloodshed as shown by Genesis 9.  No the logical conclusion is they were Crucified.  And verse 27 "And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day."

In Esther, Haman was hanged (also really Crucifixion, the Persians are the ones usually credited with inventing it) on the 17th of Nisan, and his sons on the 14th of Adar.  Jesus was made Sin for us. Even though he was completely without Sin, God poured out his Wrath upon him as if he where just as Evil as Haman or Hitler.

The term "Great Tribulation"

On The Rapture I've mostly settled into a Mid-Trib position. But your typical Mid-Trib believer says that the "Great Tribulation" refers only to the second half of the 70th Week (and so from their POV their Pre-Trib) and is basically synonymous with The Wrath/Day of The Lord.  I'm different however, I view the term "Great Tribulation" as not such a specific term at all.

The Pre-Wrath position also believes both "Great Tribulation" and "Wrath" are only the last 3 and half years. But they divide it up, with the Rapture being were the split is.

Chris White, who's Pre-Wrath, makes an amusing mistake, he says the term "Great Tribulation" occurs only twice in The Bible, in Matthew 24, and Revelation 7. There is in fact another usage of the term I shall discus.

The word "Tribulation" alone occurs a lot, and is a term that most serious students of The Bible realize is synonymous with persecution, and is not at all limited only to a specific End Times time period. It is the term "Great Tribulation" that we tend to insist on making more specific, to some it refers to the entire 70th week, to some only the first half. And as I pointed out above some view it variantly as the second half or part of it. Some Pre-Tribbers would also say the entire 70th week is Tribulation but only the second half the "Great Tribulation".

The usage of the term that gets overlooked is in Revelation 2:22, where it's part of the message to the Church at Thyatira. "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

Typically people insist this should still be viewed as strictly end times because of the typological applications that clearly make Thyatira characteristic of The Catholic Church (I actually see Pergomos as equally or more Catholic in character), and perhaps also other Paganized "Christian" religions, like the Orhtodox, or Anglicans, or Mormons, ect. And I see some validity to those typological views, but it still must also apply to the original immediate context, or else the type tells us nothing. I think this was first fulfilled by the Christian persecutions that broke out in Asia Minor early in the reign of Hadrian.

And even looking at the type, it doesn't fit the way many Protestants want to see the Catholic Church's role in the Tribulation period. If it applies to the Vatican's End Times role then they will be victims of The Beast's persecution as much as any other Christians. Of course Revelation 17 does say the Beast will turn on Mystery Babylon. I don't view Mystery Babylon as the Catholic Church alone however, but as all Pagan religion.

One could say this has happened to the Catholic Church via Henry VIII's persecutions, or the massive Christian Persecution during the French Revolution, which was mostly against Catholics because the Protestant Reformation never made much ground in France. But those Atheists and Deists certainly hated other Christian sects just as much.

The point is, when we take this verse seriously the term "Great Tribulation" is no longer just one time period.

Some may point out that "the" is in the Greek text in Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 but not Revelation 3.  But Greek used it's definite article far more loosely then English.  Including using it before personal names.  As a KJV only believer in principle I trust they had good reasons grammatically to leave it out of the English Translation.

Matthew 24:21 is the main basis for insisting that the term applies specifically to the second half "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." the timing of this verse being what's happening in the wake of the Abomination of Desolation.

First off, I feel the wording can indeed work as saying we were already in Great Tribulation, but now it's escalating to it's most severe phase. Indeed Jesus had clearly already described a massive worldwide persecution before he reached the Abomination of Desolation.  In fact to me the wording, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time", absolutely implies there was "Great Tribulation" before.  But this shall be even greater.

The typical Pre-Wrath position seems to be that he describes the persecution then looks back to describe how it began. But it's funny because there are other places were their main objection to other views is their not interpreting the Olivte chronologically. I make no absolute claim that the Olivte Discourse is strictly chronological, as I've explained elsewhere Revelation is the key to how to unlock the Chronology of other Bible passages that summarize the End Times.

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes   , and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The Pre-Wrath position is that Matthew 24 tells us when "Great Tribulation" is, so we must be in the second half of the 70th week already here. To me it's absurd to think Revelation has reached the midway point of the 70th week any sooner then the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11. I've explained why elsewhere.

I agree that this Multitude is the same as we see in The Fifth Seal.  And I agree the Fifth Seal's opening correlates to the specific End Times persecution Jesus warned of in Matthew 24.  But the multitude isn't limited to those, it's clearly defined as all the Martyrs of The Church Age starting with Stephen.  They all came out of "Great Tribulation".

Western Christians tend to view persecution of the Church as limited to specific eras of Church History.  But there have always been believers being persecuted, either by non Christians or fellow professing Christians.  Even today, most of the Body of Christ is under the threat of death, in China, North Korea and various Islamic and other third world countries.

"Great Tribulation" is a term describing severe persecution. I view there as being two great  End Times persecutions coming.

1. A persecution of The Church during the first half, which will have a corresponding "Falling away" Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 2, and clearly placed before the unveiling of the Man of Sin.

2. A massive attempted Genocide of Israel, that begins as soon as the Abomination of Desolation happens which is why Jesus warned Israel to flee immediately (see my Olivite Discourse study). Revelation 12 likewise describes God as having a hiding place for her in the wilderness. Isaiah 63 hints at that place being in Edom. Petra is a popular theory.

Now the persecution of Israel we know for certain has The Beast and The False Prophet (The Antichrist) as the force behind it. The Church's persecution earlier may or may not be also, it isn't clear. The original Antichrist heresy may be what we're being persecuted for not accepting or maybe not. I've explained in other threads why I feel there may be decoy Antichrists during the first half of the 70th week.

But that's besides the point, the point is there will be a major worldwide persecution of Christians BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation happens. The Pre-Wrath people think their the ones most prepared for the coming persecution, but the ones I've studied at least (like Chris White) are clear that it doesn't happen till after the unveiling of the Man of Sin, and that the first half of the 70th week will be a seemingly good time for all Judeo-Christians. So to me their unprepared just as much as people thinking we'll be taken out first, because they think they'll be safe so long the Abomination of Desolation hasn't happened yet.

But it can also be valid to view this escalated "Great Tribulation" of Matthew 24 as simply a very brief time period between the Abomination of Desolation and His Coming.  It may seem like a lot happens in Matthew's account between those, but it's all described pretty broadly, and sometimes a lot can happen in very little time.  To me this could all fit easily into the three and a half days the Two Witnesses are lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

So that's why to me "Great Tribulation" characterizes the entire 70th week in a sense but also the entire Church Age. But there is no single individual "The Great Tribulation", that three word phrase is never in The Bible.

Based on Matthew 24:29, The Great Tribulation of The Church by definition ends at The Parusia.  No matter when The Parusia happens.

Post-Tribbers love to keep citing "immediately after the tribulation of those days" as if it proves their model, because they as much as Pre-Tribbers are in the habit of viewing "tribulation" and the 70th Week as synonymous.  But in fact that isn't Biblical.  The verse simply tells as the a tribulations has ended when the Rapture happens, alone it tells us nothing of the Rapture's timing.