Eschatology views Tier Ranking

I'm going to rank various positions on Eschatology in terms of how I personally feel about them at the time of my writing this post on Saturday November 13th of 2021.

S Tier: The Position(s) I currently favor.

I'm currently a Pre-Millennial Futurist with a Rapture Position that can be called "Mid-Trib", but not what many assume Mid-Trib means in that what The Rapture is I view mostly the same as Post-Tribbers, it is the Second Coming, and from my position's own POV the Tribulation by definition ends at The Rapture.  And The Last Trump is the Seventh Trumpet.

I also consider some Idealist readings of Revelation also true, it is also a symbolic summery of The Entire Biblical Meta narrative, but that doesn't conflict with it also being future events, because that's what every good final episode of a saga should be.

A Tier: Positions I'm currently very open to being converted to.

Historicism in it's Pre-Millennial form, Partial-Preterism and Revivalist post-Millennialism, or something that combines elements of those. 

I kind of want to be convinced of something like that now given other things I believe.  But it wouldn't be likely to be any in their current most well known forms, since my hypothetical Preterism wouldn't be 70 AD focused (not for Matthew, Mark or Revelation anyway) and my Historicism would be less fixated on The Vatican viewing Christian Monarchy in general as the Abomination of Desolation.

If I did abandon Futurism I would probably retire this blog and start a new one.

B Tier: Views I consider firmly wrong but not in any way heretical.

Middleism, only in that separating Matthew's Olivette Discourse from Revelation I view as untenable, whichever time period one is about so is the other.

Also any views where my only or main objections come down to not interpreting Revelation as Chronologically as I do.  But thus far everyone I've seen doing that is also guilty of something down below, (It's mainly associated with Post-Trib, Chris White's Pre-Wrath and Preterism).

C Tier: Views I consider tied to Heresy but merely minor ones

Dispensationalism (Pre-Trib, some forms of Mid-Trib, the Pre-Wrath view of Chris White), Supersecessionism (Most forms of Post-Trib, probably some hypothetical forms of Mid-Trib, and also today most Non Futurists).

And also Domminionism which mainly manifests as Reconstructionist Post-Millennialism but can be made compatible with other views.

D Tier: Views heretical in their rejections of core doctrines of the Faith.

Any view that denies a literal bodily Resurrection of The Dead.  Which is firmly required for Full Preterism and Amillenialism.

F Tier: Basically not even really Christian at all anymore.

Any view that identifies the Satan of The New Testament with YHWH The God of The Hebrew Bible.  Like Marcionism and the most well known forms of Gnosticism.

Often goes hand in hand with throwing out Revelation altogether as a False Prophecy.  But they may also selectively use stuff from Revelation.  Also these people are generally also doing the D Tier Heresy.

The Rapture still hasn't happened at the end of Revelation Chapter 7

This argument is applicable to refuting Pre-Trib and maybe some forms of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib.  But I'm mainly making it with the "Pre-Wrath" model of Chris White in mind, the view that should be called the Sixth Seal Rapture view, in fact I think it's possibly the true final nail in the coffin of that view.

I've already deconstructed most layers of their argument, how silly it is to use the least unique characteristics of Matthew 24's Parusia account to decide where it happens in Revelation and choose a place with no truly uniquely Parusia characteristics.  And how there is no Wrath during the Trumpets.  But there is one issue I keep forgetting to really get into, and I only just recently realized the full implication of what Revelation chapter 7 says.

So Chris White's position is that the Multitude in Heaven in Revelation 7:9-17 is the post Rapture Resurrected Church .

Now I and Chris White agree that this Multitude is clearly the same people under the Altar when the Fifth Seal is opened back in chapter 6.  And we both agree that back then they had not been Raptured/Resurrected yet since they are explicitly described as just souls there.

I guess White feels like their state being different at all must be proof they are resurrected now, because there is really no other reason to think that.

You can't argue the Robes represent their bodies since they already possessed them in the Fifth Seal. I'm not sure what exactly the Robes are.but to argue they are their Resurrected Bodies would require arguing our Resurrected bodies have no continuity with our current bodies which would be functionally the same as making the Resurrection merely spiritual.

The key detail I only recently noticed however is that the last verse of the chapter is clearly describing the Rapture as yet Future, when the Lamb "shall lead them unto living fountains of waters" is The Rapture.  And you can't say I'm misusing the word "shall" by treating it as inherently future tense because the part about God wiping away all tears is definitely yet future, that happens in Chapter 21.

So that kills the Rapture view of Chris White, Revelation 7 explicitly tells us the Rapture is still yet future.  The scope of the Chapter is showing us Church Age saints on Earth and the souls of martyrs in heaven.

In Chapter 14 it's the 144 Thousand who are described in ways that are unambiguously telling us they are Resurrected now, by being "Redeemed from the Earth" and the "Firstfruits".  And in the first part of Revelation 7 they are still on Earth, as they are in the Fifth Trumpet later.  And in Paul being Sealed is a Church specific promise, tied to our promise that the Holy Spirit will not leave us which the Old Testament Saints didn't have.

So I feel like I can now firmly declare "Pre-Wrath" to be dead.

There is no Wrath before the Seventh Trumpet.

Alan Kurshner supports his position that the Eschatological Wrath of God is more then just the Seven Bowls by saying the word "Wrath" doesn't have to be used for the concept of "Wrath" to be in mind.

I do not disagree with that on it's own, after all the word "Parousia" isn't in Revelation at all but I strongly feel Revelation tells us when that happens by describing it's characteristics.

However my strong belief that we are not in Wrath during the first half of the book is based on more then just the rarity of the word itself popping up in the first 11 chapters.  It's based on specifically what we are told when Wrath is explicitly mentioned.

After the Seventh Trumpet is sounded Revelation 11:18 says that His Wrath is Come, Wrath starting is an effect of which the Seventh Trumpet is a cause.  The only time the word Wrath is used before the Seventh Trumpet is sounded is during the Sixth Seal events of Revelation chapter 6, but it's not any heavenly voice saying it there, it's the Kings of The Earth, not a credible source.  Again see my post on the Non Signs.

A common explanation of the difference between Tribulation and Wrath is that "Tribulation is what Man does and Wrath is what God does".  This definition is often promoted by Pre and Post Tirbbers, people who don't even consider such a distinction relevant to the timing of The Rapture.

Even if I partially agreed with that I would still say the events associated with the Seals and first 6 Trumpets are not directly God's doing the same way the Bowls are.  After all events Pre-Wrathers place before the Rapture (the first 5 Seals) are just as arguably caused by God as the Trumpets are.  In fact the seals being opened by the Lamb rather then Angels makes them if anything more directly God's doing.

But I don't agree with that definition, it isn't found in Scripture.

The doctrine that The Church won't be here during the Eschatological Day of The Lord's Wrath doesn't mean God inherently isn't judging the nations during the Church Age.  For one thing there are passages definitely about what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD that called it God's Wrath.

In fact the accounts of the Trumpets specifically refer to Believers being here, unlike the Bowls.  No the 144 Thousand can't be interpreted as Post Rapture believers, they are described using clearly Church Specific terminology, like being the First Fruits.  In Paul's Epistles being Sealed is itself a Church specific Promise, tied to our Promise that The Holy Spirit won't leave us.

There is no evidence of believers on Earth during the Bowls, in fact Chapters 14 and 15 seem to have us in heaven already.  At best the first Bowl's account can be taken to imply there still exist people who didn't take the Mark.  But unlike most Christians I don't think only Believers will refuse The Mark.

Or if there are Saints during the Bowls period they can't be proven to be the Church specifically the same way the 144 Thousand are.  The people of God being told to come out of Babylon in the Wilderness is terrestrial Israel.

Biblically Trumpets are warnings.  I'm to lazy to go and make that argument right now, but google it I'm confident you'll find many have proven that.  The Trumpets are the warning signs we are supposed to be looking out for.

Also I will in the near future be making another post on how the removal of restraint refereed to in II Thessalonians 2 is the Fifth Trumpet in Revelation 9.

I made that Anti-PreWrath Meme I mentioned.

I would like to see someone else make a better version of it.

And I think actually a brief Twitter exchange with Christ White which I'll copy/paste here.

The Lamb's Waifu

@JaredMithrandir

I made an #AntiPreWrathMeme. But I've like for someone else to improve it.

@prewrathrapture

#PreWrath #MidTrib #PreTrib #TheRapture #PostTrib

9:37 AM · Nov 15, 2019·Twitter Web App

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Chris White

@prewrathrapture

·

15h

Replying to

@JaredMithrandir

All this shows is that you are not familiar with prewrath view on rev 13, and for that matter most peoples view on the timing of rev 13 which is a biography which extends from his beginning to his end. By your logic the 6th seal comes before christ's birth in rev 12 lol.

1

The Lamb's Waifu

@JaredMithrandir

·

14h

I don't view Revelation 12 as the Birth of Christ and neither did Methodious of Olympus back before Nicaea. Revelation 11-13 is a clear sequence of cause and effects, Pre-Wrath aren't the only ones mistaken on that. But most still place the Abomination here.

1

The Lamb's Waifu

@JaredMithrandir

·

14h

In your view when the Abomination happens in the actual Timeline of Revelation it is barely commented on at all. The identity of the Man Child is revealed by Isaiah 66, it's New Jerusalem.