They are mutually exclusive.
Pre-Wrathers keep referring to the "Celestial disturbance event" as if there is only one. Revelation has multiple celestial disturbance events, and Pre-Wrathers claim to like me interpret Revelation Chronologically, or at least that the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are successive judgments not different looks at the same thing like Post-Tribbers tend to.
They want to see references outside Revelation to the Moon being darkened as being the Sixth Seal, even though the Moon isn't darkened there. Later the Sun, Moon and Stars are partially darkened by the 4th Trumpet event, then for 40s days the sun, moon and stars are fully blacked out in the 5th Trumpet event by the smoke. Then later the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath is what I believe Isaiah 13 means by the Sun and Moon not giving their light at the time Babylon falls in Revelation 18.
Every Pre-Wrather I know is against the Blood Moon theory, Chris White's debunking of it I've recommended repeatedly. Yet they use the modern Scientific explanation for what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying the Moon being like Blood and not giving light are the same.
During a Lunar Eclipse the Moon is darker then usual but it is giving light, it is only on a Solar Eclipse or New Moon (day before the Biblical New Moon) that the Moon gives no light, if you want to look for a normal astronomical event for that.
If the Moon has any color at all it is by definition giving light. There is no Color without light.
Here is the thing though, Blood is actually a very bright red. And when I was observing the last of the overly hyped Tetrad a few days ago I kept feeling it was not a shade of Red I'd describe as like Blood at all.
What's funny is the Full Moon a month prior to this, at the end of August looked inexplicably Red, and I know others observed the same thing. That was a shade of Red I'd consider Blood Red, but there was no Lunar Eclipse that day. I still don't understand what caused that.
If there is a naturalistic explanation at all for what happens to the Sun and Moon in the Sixth Seal it is probably ash entering the air form a Volcanic Eruption, which has been documented to cause the Moon to look bright Red in the past. The reason that happens is all about the light the Moon is giving. And Joel 2's account of this event clearly alludes to Volcanoes.
But even accepting that flawed logic for saying a Blood Moon could be a darkened moon. That doesn't change that there are other places in Revelation far more explicitly about the Moon being darkened. Yet Pre-Wrath and other mistaken views are dependent on insisting that the Moon being darkened in Matthew 24 can ONLY correspond to the Sixth Seal.
This post is elaborating on things I said in my first Sixth Seal post. And also ties into this post.
Showing posts with label Blood Moon. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Blood Moon. Show all posts
Wednesday, September 30, 2015
Sunday, September 27, 2015
Possible Psalm 81 Retraction
In my main Seventh Trumpet post I had cited Psalm 81 as evidence for affiliating Yom Teruah with Trumpet sounding. And my overall point in that post remains regardless of the relevance of this Psalm. But it turns out there are possible translation issues with that verse.
I had cited the KJV rendering, as is usually my default, of verse 3.
There are a few issues I have since discovered. Which I found looking into why many modern Bibles replace "in the time appointed" with Full Moon.
1. The Hebrew doesn't use the usual Hebrew phrase for Appointed Time, Mowed, but rather Keceh, which the Strongs says means full or fullness.
2. The usual word for the "new" part of New Moon, Rosh, isn't the Hebrew in the verse. Just the word Codesh which is affiliated with the Moon as well as with Months. But not the standard Hebrew word for Moon which is Yerah.
3. The reference to "solem feast day" isn't Mowed either, but chag, which unlike other words translated Feast is assumed to specifically mean a feast or festival. I've been told recently that only the pilgrimage days are feasts/festivals. Two of those happen on or right after Full Moons, and none on a New Moon.
According to Numbers 10 the Silver Trumpets are sounded on all the Appointed Times. The Hebrew here references the Shofar however. It's possible the types of Trumpets are not meant to be as distinguished from others as some insist they should be.
Modern Bibles are clearly wrong to reference the New and Full Moon both, this is a single day being refereed to according to the grammar. If it's a Solemn Feast Day that's Full Moon linked, it's either Passover of Tabernacles.
The word in question for "fullness" is only used once elsewhere in Scripture. Proverbs 7:20. There again the KJV renders it Appointed.
It is strong number 3677, but it's root is 3680. That word is taken as meaning things like cover, hide, conceal. So that sounds more like the New Moon or a solar Eclipse (the eve of the Hebrew New Moon which is the crescent) were the Moon isn't visible at all.
Numbers 10 does say to sound the Silver Trumpets on all the Holy Days, but it's usually only Yom Teruah (or Yom Kippur but only for the Jubilee) specifically associated with Trumpets. Especially the Shofar.
I still think my original view on this may be right, but that makes those who insist Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur are not Feasts mistaken. Solomon's 14 day Festival went through Yom Kippur, which doesn't work if Yom Kippur is a Fast Day as tradition as convinced people.
The Septuagint agrees with the KJV on this verse, I have major issues with the Septuagint, but those come down to how it's used against the KJV, and the Masoretic text in general, here I'm simply wondering how to interpret what the Masoretic text says. And I do think now the KJV and LXX are both mistaken in exactly how to express the verse, but possibly closer to the correct intent then the Full Moon view.
Thing is this would be the only verse in The Bible making the Full Moon significant, (with only one other mentioning it at all, based on the same word). Certain Feast Days happen to occur near the Full Moon, but it's how long after the New Moon they are counted. And saying the 15th of each month is the Full Moon is a mistake based on a wrong understanding of the Biblical New Moon. The Full Moon is actually the 14th more often then not.
I always find it significant when God does the opposite of The Pagans. The Full Moon is constantly significant to Pagans, but The Bible seems to be more focused on New Moons.
This PDF argued in-favor of the Full Moon interpretation. But in doing so reveals how that interpretation has it's roots in the opinions of the Pharasitic Rabbis of the first and second centuries, who went on to influence Jerome. I give Jerome credit for being the first "Church Father" to use Hebrew rather then the Septuagint for the Old Testament, but he should have sought his advice from Kariates rather then Rabbis.
And that PDF's argument against the "covering" interpretation seems overly technical for a word that is used only twice.
My hunch now is that this refers to when the Moon comes out of hiding, the Biblical New Moon.
This is an issue I'm gonna to dig deeper on.
On a side note, tonight is the Blood Moon (but in Kariate Biblical reckoning it's not Tabernacles after all, Tabernacles starts tomorrow night). Here is Chris White's refutation of that again.
He could have added that it's barely visible in Israel, this last one being the only one visible there at all.
I'm gonna put Rob Skiba's recent longer video here too, though he says plenty I don't agree with (like on the Flat Earth).
I had cited the KJV rendering, as is usually my default, of verse 3.
Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.Yom Teruah is the only day that is both a New Moon and one of the Leviticus 23 Feast Days.
There are a few issues I have since discovered. Which I found looking into why many modern Bibles replace "in the time appointed" with Full Moon.
1. The Hebrew doesn't use the usual Hebrew phrase for Appointed Time, Mowed, but rather Keceh, which the Strongs says means full or fullness.
2. The usual word for the "new" part of New Moon, Rosh, isn't the Hebrew in the verse. Just the word Codesh which is affiliated with the Moon as well as with Months. But not the standard Hebrew word for Moon which is Yerah.
3. The reference to "solem feast day" isn't Mowed either, but chag, which unlike other words translated Feast is assumed to specifically mean a feast or festival. I've been told recently that only the pilgrimage days are feasts/festivals. Two of those happen on or right after Full Moons, and none on a New Moon.
According to Numbers 10 the Silver Trumpets are sounded on all the Appointed Times. The Hebrew here references the Shofar however. It's possible the types of Trumpets are not meant to be as distinguished from others as some insist they should be.
Modern Bibles are clearly wrong to reference the New and Full Moon both, this is a single day being refereed to according to the grammar. If it's a Solemn Feast Day that's Full Moon linked, it's either Passover of Tabernacles.
The word in question for "fullness" is only used once elsewhere in Scripture. Proverbs 7:20. There again the KJV renders it Appointed.
He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.Other translations also say "full moon" instead of "day appointed' here.
It is strong number 3677, but it's root is 3680. That word is taken as meaning things like cover, hide, conceal. So that sounds more like the New Moon or a solar Eclipse (the eve of the Hebrew New Moon which is the crescent) were the Moon isn't visible at all.
Numbers 10 does say to sound the Silver Trumpets on all the Holy Days, but it's usually only Yom Teruah (or Yom Kippur but only for the Jubilee) specifically associated with Trumpets. Especially the Shofar.
I still think my original view on this may be right, but that makes those who insist Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur are not Feasts mistaken. Solomon's 14 day Festival went through Yom Kippur, which doesn't work if Yom Kippur is a Fast Day as tradition as convinced people.
The Septuagint agrees with the KJV on this verse, I have major issues with the Septuagint, but those come down to how it's used against the KJV, and the Masoretic text in general, here I'm simply wondering how to interpret what the Masoretic text says. And I do think now the KJV and LXX are both mistaken in exactly how to express the verse, but possibly closer to the correct intent then the Full Moon view.
Thing is this would be the only verse in The Bible making the Full Moon significant, (with only one other mentioning it at all, based on the same word). Certain Feast Days happen to occur near the Full Moon, but it's how long after the New Moon they are counted. And saying the 15th of each month is the Full Moon is a mistake based on a wrong understanding of the Biblical New Moon. The Full Moon is actually the 14th more often then not.
I always find it significant when God does the opposite of The Pagans. The Full Moon is constantly significant to Pagans, but The Bible seems to be more focused on New Moons.
This PDF argued in-favor of the Full Moon interpretation. But in doing so reveals how that interpretation has it's roots in the opinions of the Pharasitic Rabbis of the first and second centuries, who went on to influence Jerome. I give Jerome credit for being the first "Church Father" to use Hebrew rather then the Septuagint for the Old Testament, but he should have sought his advice from Kariates rather then Rabbis.
And that PDF's argument against the "covering" interpretation seems overly technical for a word that is used only twice.
My hunch now is that this refers to when the Moon comes out of hiding, the Biblical New Moon.
This is an issue I'm gonna to dig deeper on.
On a side note, tonight is the Blood Moon (but in Kariate Biblical reckoning it's not Tabernacles after all, Tabernacles starts tomorrow night). Here is Chris White's refutation of that again.
He could have added that it's barely visible in Israel, this last one being the only one visible there at all.
I'm gonna put Rob Skiba's recent longer video here too, though he says plenty I don't agree with (like on the Flat Earth).
Friday, September 18, 2015
The New Moon of Tishri was late this year
It was spotted September 15th 2015, not the 14th.
That means Biblically Yom Kippur starts at sunset September 24th, not the 23rd, which damages those theories.
And this also damages the Blood Moon theory.
That means Biblically Yom Kippur starts at sunset September 24th, not the 23rd, which damages those theories.
And this also damages the Blood Moon theory.
Wednesday, May 20, 2015
I'm kind of annoyed
That currently the post poplar post of this Blog is the Lunar Tetrad of 2032-33 post.
I'm not dogmatic about any of my date setting theories. And currently that one happens be my least favorite of the ones I've suggested in the history of this blog.
But I guess until this years Fall Feasts come and go the Blood Moon theory will remain the hot topic in Bible Prophecy, and so anything even vaguely related to it will get a lot of clicks.
I'm not dogmatic about any of my date setting theories. And currently that one happens be my least favorite of the ones I've suggested in the history of this blog.
But I guess until this years Fall Feasts come and go the Blood Moon theory will remain the hot topic in Bible Prophecy, and so anything even vaguely related to it will get a lot of clicks.
Saturday, February 7, 2015
Possibility of 2050-2057
I'm not dogmatic on any date setting. But I have come to an interesting hypothetical theory.
If you take Ussher's Creation date (4004 B.C.) and correct him only on the 60 year dispute on when in Terah's life Abraham was born, you get 3944 B.C. Which then has 2057 mark the begging of the 6001st year of History, (remember that there is no year 0).
Meanwhile J.R. Church had his Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms theory, centered on the fact that Psalm 48 could be viewed as a Prophecy of Israel's restoration in 1948 (though it's ultimately about New Jerusalem). But he stopped viewing them as correlating to years with Book 5 (Psalm 107 and up) because he didn't want the end to be that far off. With 150 Psalms, that puts the Period the Psalms document as ending in 2050.
There are reasons I've come to theorize that the Seventh Trumpet (which I view as the midway point of the 70th week) could correlate to a Solar Eclipse on the eve of the Feast of Trumpets (First of Tishri). There will be one on September 12 of 53 AD. This is similar to the August 2 2027 eclipse a certain website online sees as significant. But that Eclipse is two months too early to be the Feast of Trumpets. That site also uses historist day=year theory nonsense about Issac Newton's 2060 theory.
It will only be partial over Israel, but be Total over North Africa and Arabia. I think it only being Partial is fine, it's pretty rare any of the Solar Eclipses at the right time of year are visible in Israel at all, and the next century has none that are Total over Israel. Jesus' description in Matthew 24 has the Sun and Moon darkened but still visible. This one fits the best of any within the life time of people alive now.
I'm not a supporter of the Blood Moon theory as I've explained on this blog before. If the Moon turning to Blood in Joel 2 and Revelation 6 has any natural explanation at all, volcanic eruptions can work just as easily. And there is certainly no Tetrad needed, the Blood Moon references in Scripture are all a singular event.
However I have argued for unrelated reasons that I feel the Sixth Seal events could happen on the Passover of the Nisan that begins the 70th Week. And at any rate I do think the moon turning to Blood would have the best dramatic effect if it's a Full Moon.
There will be a Total Lunar Eclipse visible in Israel on May 6 of 2050. On the Calendar the Jews currently use that's a month too late to be Passover. But some people think the Jewish calendar is in some years off by a month, and indeed the Samaritans and Karaites both do their leap months differently. But if it is accurate then that May 6th would be Second Passover, which I have before argued for seeing as possibly eschatologicaly significant. This Blood Moon is also the first of a Tetrad.
The Sixth Seal theory I've worked out before could easily be adjusted to that, the Horsemen would still ride in Nisan.
Back to the 2053 Solar Eclipse. It will be at that time that Jupiter is leaving Virgo after having been in her for over 9 months. Venus, Mercury, Uranus and Mars will all be in Virgo at that time too. Which can be interesting in light of Revelation 12 theories. The Moon will indeed be under the feet of Virgo just a few days later.
The top objection to this other then usual anti Date Setting sentiment would be the view that the end must come within a generation of 1948. People are already beginning to more commonly live to 120, so some people born before 1948 could still be alive in 2057.
Edit Update : I was honestly unaware when I first came up with this of Frank J. Tipler and his reasons for predicting the second coming before 2057. (of course my model as a form of "Mid-Trib" places the Second Coming proper in 2053).
If you take Ussher's Creation date (4004 B.C.) and correct him only on the 60 year dispute on when in Terah's life Abraham was born, you get 3944 B.C. Which then has 2057 mark the begging of the 6001st year of History, (remember that there is no year 0).
Meanwhile J.R. Church had his Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms theory, centered on the fact that Psalm 48 could be viewed as a Prophecy of Israel's restoration in 1948 (though it's ultimately about New Jerusalem). But he stopped viewing them as correlating to years with Book 5 (Psalm 107 and up) because he didn't want the end to be that far off. With 150 Psalms, that puts the Period the Psalms document as ending in 2050.
There are reasons I've come to theorize that the Seventh Trumpet (which I view as the midway point of the 70th week) could correlate to a Solar Eclipse on the eve of the Feast of Trumpets (First of Tishri). There will be one on September 12 of 53 AD. This is similar to the August 2 2027 eclipse a certain website online sees as significant. But that Eclipse is two months too early to be the Feast of Trumpets. That site also uses historist day=year theory nonsense about Issac Newton's 2060 theory.
It will only be partial over Israel, but be Total over North Africa and Arabia. I think it only being Partial is fine, it's pretty rare any of the Solar Eclipses at the right time of year are visible in Israel at all, and the next century has none that are Total over Israel. Jesus' description in Matthew 24 has the Sun and Moon darkened but still visible. This one fits the best of any within the life time of people alive now.
I'm not a supporter of the Blood Moon theory as I've explained on this blog before. If the Moon turning to Blood in Joel 2 and Revelation 6 has any natural explanation at all, volcanic eruptions can work just as easily. And there is certainly no Tetrad needed, the Blood Moon references in Scripture are all a singular event.
However I have argued for unrelated reasons that I feel the Sixth Seal events could happen on the Passover of the Nisan that begins the 70th Week. And at any rate I do think the moon turning to Blood would have the best dramatic effect if it's a Full Moon.
There will be a Total Lunar Eclipse visible in Israel on May 6 of 2050. On the Calendar the Jews currently use that's a month too late to be Passover. But some people think the Jewish calendar is in some years off by a month, and indeed the Samaritans and Karaites both do their leap months differently. But if it is accurate then that May 6th would be Second Passover, which I have before argued for seeing as possibly eschatologicaly significant. This Blood Moon is also the first of a Tetrad.
The Sixth Seal theory I've worked out before could easily be adjusted to that, the Horsemen would still ride in Nisan.
Back to the 2053 Solar Eclipse. It will be at that time that Jupiter is leaving Virgo after having been in her for over 9 months. Venus, Mercury, Uranus and Mars will all be in Virgo at that time too. Which can be interesting in light of Revelation 12 theories. The Moon will indeed be under the feet of Virgo just a few days later.
The top objection to this other then usual anti Date Setting sentiment would be the view that the end must come within a generation of 1948. People are already beginning to more commonly live to 120, so some people born before 1948 could still be alive in 2057.
Edit Update : I was honestly unaware when I first came up with this of Frank J. Tipler and his reasons for predicting the second coming before 2057. (of course my model as a form of "Mid-Trib" places the Second Coming proper in 2053).
Sunday, October 12, 2014
Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs
This may well be one of this blogs most rehashed subjects, since Pre-Wrath is the Rapture view I kind of feel most compelled to refute (Pre-Trib and Post-Tribs problems are well known). And this issue is the foundation of the Pre-Wrath argument. While I've addressed it before it's always while dealing with other things too. So here I shall lay things out.
Matthew 24:27-24 refers to the following Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs.
1. Lightning
2. Earthquake
3. Sun being darkened
4. Moon does not giver her light
5. Stars falling from Heaven to the Earth
3 and 4 should perhaps be grouped together as the same sign. But why I need to separate them here will become apparent.
Pre-Wrathers correctly say 2, 3, 5 correspond to the 6th Seal events in Revelation 6. But they ignore 1.
They insist 4 is the same as the Moon being like Blood. It's funny because Pre-Wrathers are often the most hostile to the Blood Moon hype prompted by Mark Blitz, pointing out the very solid reasons Blood Moon references can't be referring to Lunar eclipses. Yet will at the same time use the science behind Lunar eclipses to suggest the Moon being darkened and looking Blood Red can be the same thing.
What is said in Matthew 24:29 is the moon gives no light. Color=Light, that's how it works. If anything I feel like what Jesus is describing (if it should be tied to any possible natural astronomical phenomenon at all), is a Total Solar Eclipse. The Sun is Darkened from the Earth's view because it's Blocked by the Moon, and the Moon receives no Sunlight to reflect.
While I agree a Lunar Eclipse does not explain the 6th Seal/Joel/Acts 2 lunar event. I do feel it will likely happen during a Full Moon, that would make the reddening effect most dramatic. That I have other independent reasons for seeing this as happening on Passover is convenient.
It is known that Volcanic Eruptions sometimes cause the Moon to look Red also. Which verifies the Joel/Acts connection, because other Joel terminology is also seen as alluding to volcanoes.
The 7th Seal in Revelation 11 includes lightning, thunder, hail and an earthquake in the very last verse.
The Chapter Divisions and even Verse divisions are NOT in the original text. Revelation 12 begins with the word "and" Kai (kahee); Conjunction, Strong #: 2532. Which is translated and, also, even, indeed, likewise and so on. It clearly means continuing from the prior events, or simultaneous with them. The Revelation 12 events are clearly continuing the 7th Trumpet account, which is part of my argument against the way Post-Trib garbles the Chronology of Revelation.
12:4 describes stars falling to The Earth. That is officially 3 out of 5, just as many as Pre-Wrathers can legitimately get for the 6th Seal. Also the early part of Revelation 12 is the one place the word Harpazo is used in Revelation.
The Sun and Moon being Darkened could have in mind the 4th or 5th Trumpet events. Or it could be the Darkening of the Sun and Moon is implied simply by events happening in Virgo being visible in the Heavens at a time when the Sun is in Virgo, which usually can't happen.
Meanwhile Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 does NOT refer to a Seal of a Scroll being Opened. But he does refer to a Trumpet being sounded. Which unlike these Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs is in both of Paul's main Rapture Passages. And Possibly a 3rd in Hebrews.
Joel 2 begins with the 6th Trumpet, then describes the Sun and Moon being Darkened. Then describes a Trumpet being sounded and The Rapture in verses 15-16.
Matthew 24:27-24 refers to the following Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs.
1. Lightning
2. Earthquake
3. Sun being darkened
4. Moon does not giver her light
5. Stars falling from Heaven to the Earth
3 and 4 should perhaps be grouped together as the same sign. But why I need to separate them here will become apparent.
Pre-Wrathers correctly say 2, 3, 5 correspond to the 6th Seal events in Revelation 6. But they ignore 1.
They insist 4 is the same as the Moon being like Blood. It's funny because Pre-Wrathers are often the most hostile to the Blood Moon hype prompted by Mark Blitz, pointing out the very solid reasons Blood Moon references can't be referring to Lunar eclipses. Yet will at the same time use the science behind Lunar eclipses to suggest the Moon being darkened and looking Blood Red can be the same thing.
What is said in Matthew 24:29 is the moon gives no light. Color=Light, that's how it works. If anything I feel like what Jesus is describing (if it should be tied to any possible natural astronomical phenomenon at all), is a Total Solar Eclipse. The Sun is Darkened from the Earth's view because it's Blocked by the Moon, and the Moon receives no Sunlight to reflect.
While I agree a Lunar Eclipse does not explain the 6th Seal/Joel/Acts 2 lunar event. I do feel it will likely happen during a Full Moon, that would make the reddening effect most dramatic. That I have other independent reasons for seeing this as happening on Passover is convenient.
It is known that Volcanic Eruptions sometimes cause the Moon to look Red also. Which verifies the Joel/Acts connection, because other Joel terminology is also seen as alluding to volcanoes.
The 7th Seal in Revelation 11 includes lightning, thunder, hail and an earthquake in the very last verse.
The Chapter Divisions and even Verse divisions are NOT in the original text. Revelation 12 begins with the word "and" Kai (kahee); Conjunction, Strong #: 2532. Which is translated and, also, even, indeed, likewise and so on. It clearly means continuing from the prior events, or simultaneous with them. The Revelation 12 events are clearly continuing the 7th Trumpet account, which is part of my argument against the way Post-Trib garbles the Chronology of Revelation.
12:4 describes stars falling to The Earth. That is officially 3 out of 5, just as many as Pre-Wrathers can legitimately get for the 6th Seal. Also the early part of Revelation 12 is the one place the word Harpazo is used in Revelation.
The Sun and Moon being Darkened could have in mind the 4th or 5th Trumpet events. Or it could be the Darkening of the Sun and Moon is implied simply by events happening in Virgo being visible in the Heavens at a time when the Sun is in Virgo, which usually can't happen.
Meanwhile Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 does NOT refer to a Seal of a Scroll being Opened. But he does refer to a Trumpet being sounded. Which unlike these Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs is in both of Paul's main Rapture Passages. And Possibly a 3rd in Hebrews.
Joel 2 begins with the 6th Trumpet, then describes the Sun and Moon being Darkened. Then describes a Trumpet being sounded and The Rapture in verses 15-16.
Tuesday, October 7, 2014
Lunar Eclipse Tetrad of 2032-33
Why doesn't Mark Blitz take an interest in this? All 4 of these are Total. And for that Tetrad 2 will be visible in the middle East (the second and third) not just the last one like the current Tetrad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_21st-century_lunar_eclipses
I still consider the Blood Moon Theory bunk altogether.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v--qn0ZyZi0
The Sun being Darkened and the Moon turning Red at the same time means it's a lot more then just a Lunar Eclipse. Lunar Eclipses do not always make the Moon look Red. And it's been Documented that Volcanic Eruptions can cause the Sun to Darken and Moon to turn Red. Also passages that are NOT Blood Moons but the Sun and Moon both being Darkened (like the Olivite Discourse), refer to Solar Eclipses if anything Astronomical.
The October 2032 Lunar Eclipse will be more visible in Israel then any of the 2014-15 ones.
The Reason Bltiz doesn't care about this Tetrad is only the 33 Blood Moons fall in Nisan and Tishrei on the current Hebrew Calendar. In 32 they're a month latter. But first many people theorize that in certain years the current Jewish Calendar is a month off (The Samaritans often observe the major Holy Days a month latter). Second however is the dates those Lunar Eclipses fall on are Biblically significant.
The April 2032 Blood Moon is on Second Passover. A date I've argued elsewhere may have more Prophetic significance then people realize.
The October 2032 Lunar Eclipse is on the eve of The Feast of Jeroboam.
What is interesting to me is, while I don't engage in dogmatic date setting, I've become attracted to theorizing the 70th Week of Daniel may be from 2030-237 AD. And I am against the usual absolutely all Date Setting is wrong attitude of Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrathers, they misuse what Jesus said without the Context of Revelation 1.
First, since I date the Crucifixion to 30 AD that would make the Gap between the 69th and 70th Weeks exactly 2000 years. Fitting the two day thing from Hosea.
I also observed how possibly the events of 30-37 AD could be viewed as a type of the End Times 70th week. (And as part of that I mentioned the Blood Moon Tetrad Blitz points to in 32-33 AD. but I wasn't of aware of this Tetrad back then).
Also a Total Solar Eclipse happens on the Feast of Trumpets in September 2033. There are reasons considering the Seventh Trumpet and Revelation 12 I've come to conclude that it's highly probable The Rapture will likely correspond to a Total Solar Eclipse on the First of Tishrei.
That year is also a rare year that the Sunset of the Feast of Trumpets falls on the Fall Equinox. That correlation is significant because I believe when God originally created everything the Lunar and Solar cycles were in-synch, and the Fall Equinox always fell on the 1st of Tishrei. And Nisan 1 on the Spring Equinox.
Also a little before that Eclipse, Venus has a near conjunction with Regulus, and Mercury with Spica. Those may not mean anything, but I make note of them.
So I'm not saying any of this will matter. But it's interesting to look at, as it fits my Mid-Seventieth Week view.
Update: I'm now leaning towards a different theory.
Further Update: I would not use the Karaites not Samaritans to suggest the Rabbinic calendar is sometimes wrong. And i gave this model new thought here.
October 2015 Update: I've made some new observation useful to this theory here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_21st-century_lunar_eclipses
I still consider the Blood Moon Theory bunk altogether.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v--qn0ZyZi0
The October 2032 Lunar Eclipse will be more visible in Israel then any of the 2014-15 ones.
The Reason Bltiz doesn't care about this Tetrad is only the 33 Blood Moons fall in Nisan and Tishrei on the current Hebrew Calendar. In 32 they're a month latter. But first many people theorize that in certain years the current Jewish Calendar is a month off (The Samaritans often observe the major Holy Days a month latter). Second however is the dates those Lunar Eclipses fall on are Biblically significant.
The April 2032 Blood Moon is on Second Passover. A date I've argued elsewhere may have more Prophetic significance then people realize.
The October 2032 Lunar Eclipse is on the eve of The Feast of Jeroboam.
What is interesting to me is, while I don't engage in dogmatic date setting, I've become attracted to theorizing the 70th Week of Daniel may be from 2030-237 AD. And I am against the usual absolutely all Date Setting is wrong attitude of Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrathers, they misuse what Jesus said without the Context of Revelation 1.
First, since I date the Crucifixion to 30 AD that would make the Gap between the 69th and 70th Weeks exactly 2000 years. Fitting the two day thing from Hosea.
I also observed how possibly the events of 30-37 AD could be viewed as a type of the End Times 70th week. (And as part of that I mentioned the Blood Moon Tetrad Blitz points to in 32-33 AD. but I wasn't of aware of this Tetrad back then).
Also a Total Solar Eclipse happens on the Feast of Trumpets in September 2033. There are reasons considering the Seventh Trumpet and Revelation 12 I've come to conclude that it's highly probable The Rapture will likely correspond to a Total Solar Eclipse on the First of Tishrei.
That year is also a rare year that the Sunset of the Feast of Trumpets falls on the Fall Equinox. That correlation is significant because I believe when God originally created everything the Lunar and Solar cycles were in-synch, and the Fall Equinox always fell on the 1st of Tishrei. And Nisan 1 on the Spring Equinox.
Also a little before that Eclipse, Venus has a near conjunction with Regulus, and Mercury with Spica. Those may not mean anything, but I make note of them.
So I'm not saying any of this will matter. But it's interesting to look at, as it fits my Mid-Seventieth Week view.
Update: I'm now leaning towards a different theory.
Further Update: I would not use the Karaites not Samaritans to suggest the Rabbinic calendar is sometimes wrong. And i gave this model new thought here.
October 2015 Update: I've made some new observation useful to this theory here.
Friday, September 19, 2014
Playing Devil's Advocate on the Seventieth Week
This is a follow up to my earlier post proving 7 years from Revelation.
In terms of those Futurists who view the 70th Week as past, I decided I want to give a fair open minded look at their view. Problem is, they don't even view the first 69 Weeks the same as I do (from the ones I've encountered). Now I am open minded to being proven wrong on that too, if you feel you have a sufficient fatal flaw to my argument feel free to leave one as a comment.
But for now, if you want to convince me of a Preterist view of the 70th Week, it's gonna need to be a view that has the 70th Week being from Nisan of 30 AD to Nisan of 37 AD. And the Crucifixion in that Nisan of 30 AD. Moving The Cross to the middle of The Week simply doesn't work.
I decided to look for myself at this Seven year period, to see if playing Devil's Advocate I could make that argument myself. But also with the thought as someone who believers in types and near fulfillments, that the 7 years following the end of the 69th Week could be a minor prefiguring of the true final 70th Week.
My view on The Sixth Seal actually lends itself to that. Based on the Sixth Seal parallels to Joel 2:28-32 and how Peter uses that same Joel passage in Acts 2. I argue that the Earthquake and Darkening of The Sun that happened as Jesus was on The Cross was a prefiguring of the Terrestrial and Cosmic Signs of the Sixth Seal. And with that I think the Sixth Seal will be opened on the 14th day of the Nisan that starts the 70th Week. And that the Sealing of the 144,000 will be on the following Pentecost, it'll be another great outpouring of The Holy Spirit.
So in a sense it may be as if the initiation of the 70th Week is also God sort of resetting his Clock back to 30 AD. But I would not build doctrine or date setting on anything I'm gonna suggest below. This is just fun conjecture.
With a connection made to the beginning, I decided to look at the end. It's not agreed universally which spring full moon correlated to Passover in 37 AD, it could've been March or April. But the one in March was around the 21st-23rd and the Seventeenth fell on a Sunday again like it did in 30, this time it was March 25th.
The 16th of March that year was the day Tiberius died, awfully close. And that Passover season close to Tiberius's death plays a key role in Josephus's account (Book 18 Chapter 4) of when Pilate was removed from his governorship.
Pilate is usually assumed to have been removed way back in the late summer or fall of 36. But I can't help but feel reading Josephus like it was closer to when Tiberius actually died. And others have as well, but the main such source I read does so arguing for a 37 AD Crucifixion, and then tying that into all kinds of other heresies.
It's not just Pilate and Tiberius. It seems 36 and 37 AD saw the either deaths or removal from power of all the figures Luke 3:1-2 states were in power at that time. Perhaps it prefigures how when the 70th Week begins, only one week is left for the current World Order.
But on the subject of Pilate's Removal. The Josephus account includes a sort of False Messiah or False Prophet figure of the Samaritans who helped get them riled up, and who remains unnamed.
The Samaritan chronicler Abul Fath mentions a sect headed by a R. Zadok which was tied to the heretic who claimed to be the “booth” or “booths” of the new Tabernacle. He speaks of “five brothers who from [the Samaritan holy mountain Gerizim] who were called [the Sons of Zadoq] and also another man called Zadoq the Elder from Bayt Far who deviated from “booths” and his companions, saying that Mount Gerizim is as holy as if the Samaritan temple were [still] standing upon it and that while one was obligated to do what was written [in the Law of Moses] he need not do what was not possible for him.” His community apparently “invoked him by the name mentioned [in the report of Booths] above, i.e. the Mediator, and agreed with [Booths] about abolishing … the rule of “Moses commanded for us a Law” [Deut 33:4]
I think, maybe these were the same individuals. There are other reasons to view Acts 6-11 as being about 37 AD. Wikipedia speculates that the martyrdom of Stephen must've been during the brief administration of Marcellus. And Paul synchronizes the time of his Conversion to when Aretas controlled Damascus (2 Corinthians 11:32). Which he didn't before Caligula became Emperor.
So that's the end of The Week, what about it's middle? Tishri of 33 AD?
33 AD is a complicated year to study, web searches for it will have to shift through those referencing it thinking the Crucifixion was that year. Nothing is known to be exactly dated to that year that resembles The Abomination of Desolation. But the main thing that causes people to argue for the Crucifixion being that year, is itself interesting to look at.
That being a desire starting from some Early Church Fathers to identify an Eclipse and Earthquake mentioned by Thallus placed as occurring in Bythia and Asia Minor in 33 AD as the one that happen when Jesus was on the Cross. He's quoted by Julius Africanus without much context. Apologetic circles want to think Thallus himself was connecting this to Jesus, and Africanus accusing him of trying to naturalize the darkness as an eclipse. But it seems more likely to me that Africanus simply assumed based on this being during the reign of Tiberius it was the same Darkness and Earthquake. Problem is, it occurred in parts of Asia Minor, effecting some of the same cities that had the Churches of Revelation 2-3, not in Judea.
Revelation does also link Earthquakes to the Middle of the Seventieth Week, both the Rapture of The Witnesses and the Seventh Trumpet.
The Annals of Tacitus was year by year, so it's interesting to look at, but he was recording Roman History not Jewish. Sadly nothing in Josephus seems to be linked to this year. The events our copies of Jospehus place between the Testemonim Flavinium and the drama that removed Pilate, are events Tacitus places before Pilate became Prefect of Judea.
33 AD is the year of the consulship of Servius Galba and Lucius Sulla (the whole year is named for them even though they didn't serve the entire year. Their consulship began at it's start). This Galba it may interest you to know is the same one who latter overthrew Nero and began the year of the Four Caesars. Tacitus recounts a probably urban legend that Tiberius said something which foretold him being Emperor some day during this Consulship. Which Tiberius supposedly knew because of Thrasyllus.
I find it interesting that the first thing we're told of this year by Tacitus is that the same two men who were the Consuls for 30 AD, Tiberius decided that year to marry to the two still unmarried daughters of Germanicus, Julia Livilla and Drusilla. Later these same two men are who Tiberius sent to help Asia Minor after the Earthquake mentioned above. Vinicius married Livilla and Longinus married Drusilla. A cousin of Longinus who was Consul later in 30 AD also married a descendant of Julia the Younger about this time.
A Financial Crisis happened in Rome this year, perhaps not unlike the one that will ravage the world when the Black Horseman rides. Agrippina the Elder and her son Drusus died this year as well. Also Nerva, a close friend of Tiberius.
I'm afraid Tacitus doesn't say much helping determine when in the year each event happened.
Another thing that makes people support a 32 or 33 AD Passover for the Death of Jesus is the Blood Moon Theory. A Tetrad of Lunar Eclipses happened on the 15ths of Nisan and Tishri of both 32 and 33 A.D.
Problems with this are many. The Blood Moon theory is bunk, I recommend Chris White's debunking of it. And the one on Passover of 33 AD wasn't total or very visible in Jerusalem. And at any-rate most of the events Blitz links to his Blood Moons happened a year or two before each Tetrad started, so even then they fit a 30 AD Crucifixion better. Joel and Revelation's Blood Moons are simultaneous with Darkened Suns, they're not Eclipses. They're either totally supernatural, or caused by volcanic eruptions.
What I will note just for the sake of reference is, this Tetrad ended with one on Tabernacles of 33 AD, which is estimated to have fallen on September 27th. In light of my feeling that Revelation 12 could be describing when the Moon is under Virgo's feet on or soon after Rosh Hoshanah as the middle of The 70th Week roughly. I decided to look at when this occurred about half a month before that Lunar Eclipse. And Saturn was very close to Regulus in Leo, not quite a full conjunction, but very close. I think that is interesting.
Now if I'm going to be serious about this, let's break down the last two verses of Daniel 9.
Daniel 9:26-27. From the KJV
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:"
This is where we all agree, Jesus died in Nisan 30 AD.
"And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary".
This is why we tend to see 70 AD as during the Gap, or many Preterist models as when the 70 Weeks ends. But the Hebrew word translated "destroy" here also means corrupt, ruin or decay. It is used and translated corrupt in Daniel 11:17 "and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him." It's Aramaic form is in Daniel 2:9 "ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me". If the "Prince that shall Come" is in fact the same Prince from earlier in Daniel 9, then the People of the Prince refers to the Jewish people.
So Maybe the reason for the Cleansing of The Temple is what's in mind here.
"And the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
There were Wars going on at this time. Directly relevant to Israel were a few revolts Pilate had to deal with. And Herod Antipas had war with Aretas of Petra.
It could also be consistent with seeing the 70th week as 30-37 AD to also see here a somewhat preemptive statement about the wars that went on past then to 70 AD.
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
The common Preterist view is this refers not to the literal taking away of Sacrifice, but them being rendered null and void after The Crucifixion. And the Covenant here the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31.
This Preterist view is why people often want to make the Crucifixion the middle of The Week, not it's end. But the word translated "Midst" is also translated "Half" sometimes. Maybe it could be meant to read "for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
What remains is simply what's taken as an allusion to The Abomination of Desolation, but it's not the exact phrase.
"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Note, the occurrence of "he" after Abomination isn't in the Hebrew text, so there is no guarantee the same person is behind it..
The Preterist view of 70 AD can't work with what Jesus specifically said (probably in reference to the Daniel 12 use of the term) of it being In The Holy Place.
But the Terminology in Daniel 9:27 is much less specific about where, and it does seem to imply more then one Idol being set up. And the word that is in some translations rendered "wing" can mean Wing, Corner, edge extremity, ect. So Preterists make a strong argument that this can refer to Titus setting the "Imago" of his Father and other Roman Idols like the standards with the Imperial Eagle on them, or the Fasces, by the Gate of The Temple in 70 AD.
Same with the Last verse of Daniel 11, the word for "tabernacles" simply means tent, and so they argue it refers to the Tents the Roman legions Camped in. Also as a supporter of the Southern Conjecture, I think the "Appeden" (Translated Palace) could be the Antonia Fortress which was where the Dome of The Rock currently is.
However, what most people haven't noticed is all those factors that could make those two things apply to Titus, can also apply to Pontius Pilate. Go back and read when Josephus first introduces his readers to Pilate in Antiquities of The Jews Book 18 Chapter 3.
So, a good argument can be made for a Preterist view of the 70 Weeks. The problem is, if the Covenant is the real New Covenant, how is it confirmed for only one week and not forever? Maybe the entire Church Age should be viewed as the 70th Week repeatably playing out in cycles until the true final fulfillment comes and we're Raptured in the Middle?
Or it could be notable that the parts of Acts I estimate to be seven years after The Cross corresponds to when The Gospel began to spread beyond just Jews and Judea. So likewise with my view on the 144,000 and the Sixth Seal when the true 70th Week begins The Gospel is again focused on Israel and Israelites.
Also, it could be interesting to read Acts 3 and 4 under a premise that Peter and John there are serving as types of The Two Witnesses.
In terms of those Futurists who view the 70th Week as past, I decided I want to give a fair open minded look at their view. Problem is, they don't even view the first 69 Weeks the same as I do (from the ones I've encountered). Now I am open minded to being proven wrong on that too, if you feel you have a sufficient fatal flaw to my argument feel free to leave one as a comment.
But for now, if you want to convince me of a Preterist view of the 70th Week, it's gonna need to be a view that has the 70th Week being from Nisan of 30 AD to Nisan of 37 AD. And the Crucifixion in that Nisan of 30 AD. Moving The Cross to the middle of The Week simply doesn't work.
I decided to look for myself at this Seven year period, to see if playing Devil's Advocate I could make that argument myself. But also with the thought as someone who believers in types and near fulfillments, that the 7 years following the end of the 69th Week could be a minor prefiguring of the true final 70th Week.
My view on The Sixth Seal actually lends itself to that. Based on the Sixth Seal parallels to Joel 2:28-32 and how Peter uses that same Joel passage in Acts 2. I argue that the Earthquake and Darkening of The Sun that happened as Jesus was on The Cross was a prefiguring of the Terrestrial and Cosmic Signs of the Sixth Seal. And with that I think the Sixth Seal will be opened on the 14th day of the Nisan that starts the 70th Week. And that the Sealing of the 144,000 will be on the following Pentecost, it'll be another great outpouring of The Holy Spirit.
So in a sense it may be as if the initiation of the 70th Week is also God sort of resetting his Clock back to 30 AD. But I would not build doctrine or date setting on anything I'm gonna suggest below. This is just fun conjecture.
With a connection made to the beginning, I decided to look at the end. It's not agreed universally which spring full moon correlated to Passover in 37 AD, it could've been March or April. But the one in March was around the 21st-23rd and the Seventeenth fell on a Sunday again like it did in 30, this time it was March 25th.
The 16th of March that year was the day Tiberius died, awfully close. And that Passover season close to Tiberius's death plays a key role in Josephus's account (Book 18 Chapter 4) of when Pilate was removed from his governorship.
Pilate is usually assumed to have been removed way back in the late summer or fall of 36. But I can't help but feel reading Josephus like it was closer to when Tiberius actually died. And others have as well, but the main such source I read does so arguing for a 37 AD Crucifixion, and then tying that into all kinds of other heresies.
It's not just Pilate and Tiberius. It seems 36 and 37 AD saw the either deaths or removal from power of all the figures Luke 3:1-2 states were in power at that time. Perhaps it prefigures how when the 70th Week begins, only one week is left for the current World Order.
But on the subject of Pilate's Removal. The Josephus account includes a sort of False Messiah or False Prophet figure of the Samaritans who helped get them riled up, and who remains unnamed.
"The man who excited them to it was one who thought lying a thing of little consequence, and who contrived every thing so that the multitude might be pleased; so he bid them to get together upon Mount Gerizzim, which is by them looked upon as the most holy of all mountains, and assured them, that when they were come thither, he would show them those sacred vessels which were laid under that place, because Moses put them there"Acts 8:9-11 says of Simon Magus. " But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries."
The Samaritan chronicler Abul Fath mentions a sect headed by a R. Zadok which was tied to the heretic who claimed to be the “booth” or “booths” of the new Tabernacle. He speaks of “five brothers who from [the Samaritan holy mountain Gerizim] who were called [the Sons of Zadoq] and also another man called Zadoq the Elder from Bayt Far who deviated from “booths” and his companions, saying that Mount Gerizim is as holy as if the Samaritan temple were [still] standing upon it and that while one was obligated to do what was written [in the Law of Moses] he need not do what was not possible for him.” His community apparently “invoked him by the name mentioned [in the report of Booths] above, i.e. the Mediator, and agreed with [Booths] about abolishing … the rule of “Moses commanded for us a Law” [Deut 33:4]
I think, maybe these were the same individuals. There are other reasons to view Acts 6-11 as being about 37 AD. Wikipedia speculates that the martyrdom of Stephen must've been during the brief administration of Marcellus. And Paul synchronizes the time of his Conversion to when Aretas controlled Damascus (2 Corinthians 11:32). Which he didn't before Caligula became Emperor.
So that's the end of The Week, what about it's middle? Tishri of 33 AD?
33 AD is a complicated year to study, web searches for it will have to shift through those referencing it thinking the Crucifixion was that year. Nothing is known to be exactly dated to that year that resembles The Abomination of Desolation. But the main thing that causes people to argue for the Crucifixion being that year, is itself interesting to look at.
That being a desire starting from some Early Church Fathers to identify an Eclipse and Earthquake mentioned by Thallus placed as occurring in Bythia and Asia Minor in 33 AD as the one that happen when Jesus was on the Cross. He's quoted by Julius Africanus without much context. Apologetic circles want to think Thallus himself was connecting this to Jesus, and Africanus accusing him of trying to naturalize the darkness as an eclipse. But it seems more likely to me that Africanus simply assumed based on this being during the reign of Tiberius it was the same Darkness and Earthquake. Problem is, it occurred in parts of Asia Minor, effecting some of the same cities that had the Churches of Revelation 2-3, not in Judea.
Revelation does also link Earthquakes to the Middle of the Seventieth Week, both the Rapture of The Witnesses and the Seventh Trumpet.
The Annals of Tacitus was year by year, so it's interesting to look at, but he was recording Roman History not Jewish. Sadly nothing in Josephus seems to be linked to this year. The events our copies of Jospehus place between the Testemonim Flavinium and the drama that removed Pilate, are events Tacitus places before Pilate became Prefect of Judea.
33 AD is the year of the consulship of Servius Galba and Lucius Sulla (the whole year is named for them even though they didn't serve the entire year. Their consulship began at it's start). This Galba it may interest you to know is the same one who latter overthrew Nero and began the year of the Four Caesars. Tacitus recounts a probably urban legend that Tiberius said something which foretold him being Emperor some day during this Consulship. Which Tiberius supposedly knew because of Thrasyllus.
I find it interesting that the first thing we're told of this year by Tacitus is that the same two men who were the Consuls for 30 AD, Tiberius decided that year to marry to the two still unmarried daughters of Germanicus, Julia Livilla and Drusilla. Later these same two men are who Tiberius sent to help Asia Minor after the Earthquake mentioned above. Vinicius married Livilla and Longinus married Drusilla. A cousin of Longinus who was Consul later in 30 AD also married a descendant of Julia the Younger about this time.
A Financial Crisis happened in Rome this year, perhaps not unlike the one that will ravage the world when the Black Horseman rides. Agrippina the Elder and her son Drusus died this year as well. Also Nerva, a close friend of Tiberius.
I'm afraid Tacitus doesn't say much helping determine when in the year each event happened.
Another thing that makes people support a 32 or 33 AD Passover for the Death of Jesus is the Blood Moon Theory. A Tetrad of Lunar Eclipses happened on the 15ths of Nisan and Tishri of both 32 and 33 A.D.
Problems with this are many. The Blood Moon theory is bunk, I recommend Chris White's debunking of it. And the one on Passover of 33 AD wasn't total or very visible in Jerusalem. And at any-rate most of the events Blitz links to his Blood Moons happened a year or two before each Tetrad started, so even then they fit a 30 AD Crucifixion better. Joel and Revelation's Blood Moons are simultaneous with Darkened Suns, they're not Eclipses. They're either totally supernatural, or caused by volcanic eruptions.
What I will note just for the sake of reference is, this Tetrad ended with one on Tabernacles of 33 AD, which is estimated to have fallen on September 27th. In light of my feeling that Revelation 12 could be describing when the Moon is under Virgo's feet on or soon after Rosh Hoshanah as the middle of The 70th Week roughly. I decided to look at when this occurred about half a month before that Lunar Eclipse. And Saturn was very close to Regulus in Leo, not quite a full conjunction, but very close. I think that is interesting.
Now if I'm going to be serious about this, let's break down the last two verses of Daniel 9.
Daniel 9:26-27. From the KJV
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:"
This is where we all agree, Jesus died in Nisan 30 AD.
"And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary".
This is why we tend to see 70 AD as during the Gap, or many Preterist models as when the 70 Weeks ends. But the Hebrew word translated "destroy" here also means corrupt, ruin or decay. It is used and translated corrupt in Daniel 11:17 "and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him." It's Aramaic form is in Daniel 2:9 "ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me". If the "Prince that shall Come" is in fact the same Prince from earlier in Daniel 9, then the People of the Prince refers to the Jewish people.
So Maybe the reason for the Cleansing of The Temple is what's in mind here.
"And the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
There were Wars going on at this time. Directly relevant to Israel were a few revolts Pilate had to deal with. And Herod Antipas had war with Aretas of Petra.
It could also be consistent with seeing the 70th week as 30-37 AD to also see here a somewhat preemptive statement about the wars that went on past then to 70 AD.
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
The common Preterist view is this refers not to the literal taking away of Sacrifice, but them being rendered null and void after The Crucifixion. And the Covenant here the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31.
This Preterist view is why people often want to make the Crucifixion the middle of The Week, not it's end. But the word translated "Midst" is also translated "Half" sometimes. Maybe it could be meant to read "for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
What remains is simply what's taken as an allusion to The Abomination of Desolation, but it's not the exact phrase.
"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Note, the occurrence of "he" after Abomination isn't in the Hebrew text, so there is no guarantee the same person is behind it..
The Preterist view of 70 AD can't work with what Jesus specifically said (probably in reference to the Daniel 12 use of the term) of it being In The Holy Place.
But the Terminology in Daniel 9:27 is much less specific about where, and it does seem to imply more then one Idol being set up. And the word that is in some translations rendered "wing" can mean Wing, Corner, edge extremity, ect. So Preterists make a strong argument that this can refer to Titus setting the "Imago" of his Father and other Roman Idols like the standards with the Imperial Eagle on them, or the Fasces, by the Gate of The Temple in 70 AD.
Same with the Last verse of Daniel 11, the word for "tabernacles" simply means tent, and so they argue it refers to the Tents the Roman legions Camped in. Also as a supporter of the Southern Conjecture, I think the "Appeden" (Translated Palace) could be the Antonia Fortress which was where the Dome of The Rock currently is.
However, what most people haven't noticed is all those factors that could make those two things apply to Titus, can also apply to Pontius Pilate. Go back and read when Josephus first introduces his readers to Pilate in Antiquities of The Jews Book 18 Chapter 3.
"BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on whichAll the same factors are there. The Roman garrisons, the plural Idols to Caesar. And Josephus specifies Pilate was the First Roman to do this. And his "Judgment Seat" probably the same seat he Tried Jesus from, was part of the Antonia Fortress.account the former procurators were wont to make theirentry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he wouldremove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in theirrequest , on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in theopen place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea."
So, a good argument can be made for a Preterist view of the 70 Weeks. The problem is, if the Covenant is the real New Covenant, how is it confirmed for only one week and not forever? Maybe the entire Church Age should be viewed as the 70th Week repeatably playing out in cycles until the true final fulfillment comes and we're Raptured in the Middle?
Or it could be notable that the parts of Acts I estimate to be seven years after The Cross corresponds to when The Gospel began to spread beyond just Jews and Judea. So likewise with my view on the 144,000 and the Sixth Seal when the true 70th Week begins The Gospel is again focused on Israel and Israelites.
Also, it could be interesting to read Acts 3 and 4 under a premise that Peter and John there are serving as types of The Two Witnesses.
Tuesday, August 26, 2014
2 Peter 3, the real Biblical relevence of 2012, the boy who cried wolf
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all thingscontinue as they were from the beginning of the creation."
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are keptin store , reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Many
things are foretold here. Including the Uniformitarian scientific
heresy, which is the root of Evolution and the Big Bang Theory and all
of that stuff. A denial of the both The Creation and The Flood.
But also hinted at is the notion that people will stop taking predictions of the End Coming seriously because people have always been saying the end is about to come. This is one of the reasons the signs of the end are compared to a Woman in Labor, because false alarms happen.
This attitude was emerging already even before the Y2K panic. Skeptics pointing out how Christians have always thought their Generation was going to be the last. The overlooked problem is during most ofChurch history
it was impossible to do that taking the Prophecies literally at face
value, with Israel not being a Nation. Now the only factor lacking is
The Temple, and once the Rabbis accept that the traditional view of The
Temple's location is wrong it can be rebuild immediately.
Before the end of 2011, there was one random Churchpredicting
the Rapture would happen in May. Then when it didn't people starting
wearing T-Shirts mocking the whole thing saying "I Survived The
Rapture".
So I think 2012 may have been the last straw, the way the hype around that surpassed all the others, and sadly even many Christians jumped into it in-spite of it being based on a Pagan concept. They should have viewed Chris White's 2012 debunking videos on Youtube.
But also hinted at is the notion that people will stop taking predictions of the End Coming seriously because people have always been saying the end is about to come. This is one of the reasons the signs of the end are compared to a Woman in Labor, because false alarms happen.
This attitude was emerging already even before the Y2K panic. Skeptics pointing out how Christians have always thought their Generation was going to be the last. The overlooked problem is during most of
Before the end of 2011, there was one random Church
So I think 2012 may have been the last straw, the way the hype around that surpassed all the others, and sadly even many Christians jumped into it in-spite of it being based on a Pagan concept. They should have viewed Chris White's 2012 debunking videos on Youtube.
Perhaps the Blood Moon theory is one minor remaining hyped up date setting that has to pass first. I also recommend Chris White's debunkings of that.
Saturday, July 26, 2014
The Sixth Seal
Revelation 6:12-17
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
First
of all, I want to explain that I don't believe most of the other
Prophecies people see as the same as the Sixth Seal actually are.
People like to talk about a frequent Prophetic pattern of "Signs in the sun, moon and stars", which may or may not also feature an Earthquake. But they're all actually pretty specific on those signs, and their not all the same. And the Sixth Seal is NOT the only time in Revelation there are signs involving the sun, moon and stars, and certainly not the only Earthquake.
Only two other Bible passages refer to the Moon becoming like Blood. Joel 2:31, and Acts 2 where Peter Quotes that part of Joel. I'll get to the significance of that latter.
Isaiah 13:10 says that neither the sun, moon or stars will give their light. People act like this is effectively the same, but not only are they not, they're mutually exclusive. If the Moon has a visible color it is giving light. Joel has two verses interestingly that do describe that kind of event, one in a context I believe places it between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets. The others in Joel chapter 3 along with Isaiah 13 I think refers to the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath, when the Kingdom of The Beast is darkened.
Matthew 24 and Mark 13's account of The Rapture speak also of both the Sun and Moon not giving light (no Blood Moon). Here stars also fall, but it's still distinct. The event is also linked to a Trumpet, not to a Seal. The Sixth Seal doesn't mention lightening either.
These aren't referring to Lunar and Solar Eclipses, since they're happening simultaneously. Dr. Robert Thieme tells us of the eruption on August 27th 1883, there were Earthquakes and tidal waves. And also that because of the volcanic ash the sun was blotted out and the moon looked red.
I love how Pre-Wraht people tend to argue against the idea of a Lunar Eclipse being described here. but will also use the concept of what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying that the Moon turning like Blood can be the same as it being Darkened.
Even if it is valid to see the Cosmic Signs aspect of the Olivtie Discourse as having some connection to the Sixth Seal. It's clearly to me only that the Sixth Seal begins those kinds of signs. Pre-Wrath people want to dogmatically build doctrine on placing The Rapture in the Sixth Seal based on it having a small subsets of the Rapture related signs, signs that are not in Paul's Rapture accounts at all. The far more universal defining features (Trumpet, Voices in Heaven, Son of Man coming on a Cloud, Resurrection of The Death, Harvest imagery) Are not in the Sixth Seal, their Revelation parallels are in chapters 11-14.
I believe firmly that Joel 2:28-32 and the Sixth Seal are the same.
People like to talk about a frequent Prophetic pattern of "Signs in the sun, moon and stars", which may or may not also feature an Earthquake. But they're all actually pretty specific on those signs, and their not all the same. And the Sixth Seal is NOT the only time in Revelation there are signs involving the sun, moon and stars, and certainly not the only Earthquake.
Only two other Bible passages refer to the Moon becoming like Blood. Joel 2:31, and Acts 2 where Peter Quotes that part of Joel. I'll get to the significance of that latter.
Isaiah 13:10 says that neither the sun, moon or stars will give their light. People act like this is effectively the same, but not only are they not, they're mutually exclusive. If the Moon has a visible color it is giving light. Joel has two verses interestingly that do describe that kind of event, one in a context I believe places it between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets. The others in Joel chapter 3 along with Isaiah 13 I think refers to the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath, when the Kingdom of The Beast is darkened.
Matthew 24 and Mark 13's account of The Rapture speak also of both the Sun and Moon not giving light (no Blood Moon). Here stars also fall, but it's still distinct. The event is also linked to a Trumpet, not to a Seal. The Sixth Seal doesn't mention lightening either.
These aren't referring to Lunar and Solar Eclipses, since they're happening simultaneously. Dr. Robert Thieme tells us of the eruption on August 27th 1883, there were Earthquakes and tidal waves. And also that because of the volcanic ash the sun was blotted out and the moon looked red.
I love how Pre-Wraht people tend to argue against the idea of a Lunar Eclipse being described here. but will also use the concept of what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying that the Moon turning like Blood can be the same as it being Darkened.
Even if it is valid to see the Cosmic Signs aspect of the Olivtie Discourse as having some connection to the Sixth Seal. It's clearly to me only that the Sixth Seal begins those kinds of signs. Pre-Wrath people want to dogmatically build doctrine on placing The Rapture in the Sixth Seal based on it having a small subsets of the Rapture related signs, signs that are not in Paul's Rapture accounts at all. The far more universal defining features (Trumpet, Voices in Heaven, Son of Man coming on a Cloud, Resurrection of The Death, Harvest imagery) Are not in the Sixth Seal, their Revelation parallels are in chapters 11-14.
I believe firmly that Joel 2:28-32 and the Sixth Seal are the same.
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Now
no Earthquake is mentioned in Joel. But Peter in quoting this in
reference to his time clearly sees the basis for the Sun being Darkened
in the Darkness that happened when Jesus was on The Cross, and there was
an Earthquake there. Clearly this event in Peter's day was only a
lesser near fulfillment. Revelation 6 sees a worldwide Earthquake, that
rearranges Terrestrial geography like something from The Silmarillion
or the Akallabêth.
Remember that the Chapter divisions are not part of the original text. So Revelation commentaries, and weeks long Bible Studies always separate the Sixth Seal from Revelation 7 and the sealing of the 144,000. But when we remember to look at this in the Context of Joel and Acts, it seems to me that this is in fact still the same event, even if some time has passed.
The concept of believers being Sealed is discussed outside Revelation in Paule's Epistles. In 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30. All of them sound to me like their about conditions unique to The Church, that don't apply to Pre or Post Church Age believers. So I reject allegorizeing the 144,000, I believe their specific people living at a specific time, and that specific number, or each of the 12 Tribes. Not simply representing the entire Church. But I do believe their part of The Church. They're also described in chapter 14 in terms that sound a lot like The Bride of Christ to me.
To the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view this must be after The Church age has ended. To the Pre-Wrath view this is right where it ends. But I see it far more likely that this is still during the Church Age, but near it's end. A sort of Culmination or Climax. One Last Great Outpouring of The Holy Spirit, greater even then the original at the Pentecost of 30 A.D. (Maybe this will also be linked to the Passover-Pentacost season). So the Church Age can end like how it started. I reject the common Baptist view that the Spiritual Gifts were only until the Canon was complete, but I'm not strictly a Pentecostal since my Soterolgoy is Baptist. And I'm certainly not Charismatic.
Some have decided to claim all of the 144,000 will be male, because their described as men. Greek and Hebrew did NOT use any word for both of the meanings we use "man" for. The 144,000 are Anthropos, which means Man as in Mankind, the Human Race. Typically the Greek stand in for Adam, but also for Enos. So not only can they include women, but Joel saying "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" tells us that clearly many (maybe exactly half) will be. I would not rule out Transgender and Intersex individuals either.
So like the first outpouring this finale one will be initially upon The House of Israel. 12,000 of each of the 12 Tribes.
Because it follows the Fifth Seal, which shows the Martyrs of all persecutions of The Church, who we see again in chapter 7, but in the context of the finale great persecution. I believe this happens after we've already entered the major World Wide persecution of Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:9-14. So the usage of the term "Great Tribulation" tells us nothing about timing, as I have another study on.
There will be a falling away as Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 when this happens, because in The West we'll be unprepared for Persecution. Some of those who recant and leave may be people who weren't really saved but just nominal Christians, in the Church only because they were raised in it, or some other convenient reason. But I don't believe it's impossible for truly Saved people to fall away. They could lose their inheritance because of this but not their Salvation. I recommend Chuck Missler's explanation of Hebrews 6.
But regardless of those problems, The Church has also historically grown under persecution. So while at first we react badly, in time I believe we will grow from it. So I think possibly most or even all of these 144,000 will be individuals Saved after this persecution started. So the witness of those Martyrs faithful unto death won't be in vain.
I do not believe the Multitude is already Raptured/Resurrected in Chapter 7. That their now wearing White Ropes isn't enough. I'd expect certain more specific poetic imagery if that was the case. The kind of terminology that is used in the 144,000 when they reappear in Chapter 14, of being the First Fruits and Redeemed out of The Earth. Perry Stone says the Bema Seat Judgement must have already happened here. How come no one has crowns then Perry? Their all martyrs so they should all have at least a Crown of Life. The Bema Judgment happens after the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet.
The account of The Sixth Seal is the only time the word "Wrath" occurs before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. And the problem is you can't build Doctrine on dialogue uttered by fallible human beings who aren't anointed Prophets of God.
That hermeneutic is of course lost on many people, there are teachers out there building doctrine on the things Jobs' idiot friends said, or justifying referring to Joseph as Jesus's father because Mary did in Luke 2 when Jesus was 12. The Bible is an infallible Book, but it still records humans saying very wrong things.
The Sixth Seal is one of the more recognizable parts of Revelation. My first memory as a small child of hearing anything from Revelation quoted is when watching the movie Ghost Busters, where Ray (Dan Aykroyd) recites it (getting the chapter it's in wrong). The world I believe will recognize the Sixth Seal when it happens. but they may not exactly get what it means right, and many Bible Prophecy teachers who are Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath, or even Post-Trib are only helping to get people confused on what it means.
Joel 2:31 says this is BEFORE the Day of The LORD, not during it, or on it, or right when it starts, Before.
It's after the Seventh Trumpet is sounded we first see voice sin heaven declaring that God's Wrath is at hand. And then again in Chapter 14.
Only the Seven Bowls are defined as being God's Wrath. Trumpets are Biblically, among other things, warnings. The sounding of Trumpets was the warning before the fall of Jericho. The judgments from the Trumpets are merely lesser warning shots. The Seven Bowls dwarf them.
Joel 2:1-16 I believe describe the last two Trumpets, and very much back up my viewing the Seventh as The Rapture, and hence my Mid-Tribulation view. We will NOT go through God's Wrath.
I believe Revelation shows us how to fit all other Prophecy together, so that Joel might seem to contradict Revelation's order isn't an issue. Joel was given a vitally important glimpse but not the whole picture. Joel 2:23 talks of the former rain and the latter rain. These I believe are the two great outpouring of The Holy Spirit at the beginning and culmination of The Church Age. I think it is also this that prompts Joels' vision to look back before what was just described. But then Joel 3 returns to the Day of Wrath.
To add additional support to the idea that the Cosmic and Terrestrial disturbances when Jesus was on the Cross were a type of those that occur at the Sixth Seal, I'd point to Joshua 10.
In verses 12 and 13 the Sun and Moon aren't darkened or turned to a different color. But usual behavior with them occurs. But the Key is verse 17-18. "But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.And Joshua said, Roll great stones upon the mouth of the cave, and set men by it for to keep them: " Sounds like a parallel to "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us".
But latter, those Five Kings are hung on trees in verse 26. Not Strangled with a rope like you might assume, Biblical execution requires Bloodshed as shown by Genesis 9. No the logical conclusion is they were Crucified. And verse 27 "And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day."
In Esther, Haman was hanged (also really Crucifixion, the Persians are the ones usually credited with inventing it) on the 17th of Nisan, and his sons on the 14th of Adar. Jesus was made Sin for us. Even though he was completely without Sin, God poured out his Wrath upon him as if he where just as Evil as Haman or Hitler.
Remember that the Chapter divisions are not part of the original text. So Revelation commentaries, and weeks long Bible Studies always separate the Sixth Seal from Revelation 7 and the sealing of the 144,000. But when we remember to look at this in the Context of Joel and Acts, it seems to me that this is in fact still the same event, even if some time has passed.
The concept of believers being Sealed is discussed outside Revelation in Paule's Epistles. In 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30. All of them sound to me like their about conditions unique to The Church, that don't apply to Pre or Post Church Age believers. So I reject allegorizeing the 144,000, I believe their specific people living at a specific time, and that specific number, or each of the 12 Tribes. Not simply representing the entire Church. But I do believe their part of The Church. They're also described in chapter 14 in terms that sound a lot like The Bride of Christ to me.
To the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view this must be after The Church age has ended. To the Pre-Wrath view this is right where it ends. But I see it far more likely that this is still during the Church Age, but near it's end. A sort of Culmination or Climax. One Last Great Outpouring of The Holy Spirit, greater even then the original at the Pentecost of 30 A.D. (Maybe this will also be linked to the Passover-Pentacost season). So the Church Age can end like how it started. I reject the common Baptist view that the Spiritual Gifts were only until the Canon was complete, but I'm not strictly a Pentecostal since my Soterolgoy is Baptist. And I'm certainly not Charismatic.
Some have decided to claim all of the 144,000 will be male, because their described as men. Greek and Hebrew did NOT use any word for both of the meanings we use "man" for. The 144,000 are Anthropos, which means Man as in Mankind, the Human Race. Typically the Greek stand in for Adam, but also for Enos. So not only can they include women, but Joel saying "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" tells us that clearly many (maybe exactly half) will be. I would not rule out Transgender and Intersex individuals either.
So like the first outpouring this finale one will be initially upon The House of Israel. 12,000 of each of the 12 Tribes.
Because it follows the Fifth Seal, which shows the Martyrs of all persecutions of The Church, who we see again in chapter 7, but in the context of the finale great persecution. I believe this happens after we've already entered the major World Wide persecution of Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:9-14. So the usage of the term "Great Tribulation" tells us nothing about timing, as I have another study on.
There will be a falling away as Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 when this happens, because in The West we'll be unprepared for Persecution. Some of those who recant and leave may be people who weren't really saved but just nominal Christians, in the Church only because they were raised in it, or some other convenient reason. But I don't believe it's impossible for truly Saved people to fall away. They could lose their inheritance because of this but not their Salvation. I recommend Chuck Missler's explanation of Hebrews 6.
But regardless of those problems, The Church has also historically grown under persecution. So while at first we react badly, in time I believe we will grow from it. So I think possibly most or even all of these 144,000 will be individuals Saved after this persecution started. So the witness of those Martyrs faithful unto death won't be in vain.
I do not believe the Multitude is already Raptured/Resurrected in Chapter 7. That their now wearing White Ropes isn't enough. I'd expect certain more specific poetic imagery if that was the case. The kind of terminology that is used in the 144,000 when they reappear in Chapter 14, of being the First Fruits and Redeemed out of The Earth. Perry Stone says the Bema Seat Judgement must have already happened here. How come no one has crowns then Perry? Their all martyrs so they should all have at least a Crown of Life. The Bema Judgment happens after the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet.
The account of The Sixth Seal is the only time the word "Wrath" occurs before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. And the problem is you can't build Doctrine on dialogue uttered by fallible human beings who aren't anointed Prophets of God.
That hermeneutic is of course lost on many people, there are teachers out there building doctrine on the things Jobs' idiot friends said, or justifying referring to Joseph as Jesus's father because Mary did in Luke 2 when Jesus was 12. The Bible is an infallible Book, but it still records humans saying very wrong things.
The Sixth Seal is one of the more recognizable parts of Revelation. My first memory as a small child of hearing anything from Revelation quoted is when watching the movie Ghost Busters, where Ray (Dan Aykroyd) recites it (getting the chapter it's in wrong). The world I believe will recognize the Sixth Seal when it happens. but they may not exactly get what it means right, and many Bible Prophecy teachers who are Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath, or even Post-Trib are only helping to get people confused on what it means.
Joel 2:31 says this is BEFORE the Day of The LORD, not during it, or on it, or right when it starts, Before.
It's after the Seventh Trumpet is sounded we first see voice sin heaven declaring that God's Wrath is at hand. And then again in Chapter 14.
Only the Seven Bowls are defined as being God's Wrath. Trumpets are Biblically, among other things, warnings. The sounding of Trumpets was the warning before the fall of Jericho. The judgments from the Trumpets are merely lesser warning shots. The Seven Bowls dwarf them.
Joel 2:1-16 I believe describe the last two Trumpets, and very much back up my viewing the Seventh as The Rapture, and hence my Mid-Tribulation view. We will NOT go through God's Wrath.
I believe Revelation shows us how to fit all other Prophecy together, so that Joel might seem to contradict Revelation's order isn't an issue. Joel was given a vitally important glimpse but not the whole picture. Joel 2:23 talks of the former rain and the latter rain. These I believe are the two great outpouring of The Holy Spirit at the beginning and culmination of The Church Age. I think it is also this that prompts Joels' vision to look back before what was just described. But then Joel 3 returns to the Day of Wrath.
To add additional support to the idea that the Cosmic and Terrestrial disturbances when Jesus was on the Cross were a type of those that occur at the Sixth Seal, I'd point to Joshua 10.
In verses 12 and 13 the Sun and Moon aren't darkened or turned to a different color. But usual behavior with them occurs. But the Key is verse 17-18. "But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.And Joshua said, Roll great stones upon the mouth of the cave, and set men by it for to keep them: " Sounds like a parallel to "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us".
But latter, those Five Kings are hung on trees in verse 26. Not Strangled with a rope like you might assume, Biblical execution requires Bloodshed as shown by Genesis 9. No the logical conclusion is they were Crucified. And verse 27 "And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day."
In Esther, Haman was hanged (also really Crucifixion, the Persians are the ones usually credited with inventing it) on the 17th of Nisan, and his sons on the 14th of Adar. Jesus was made Sin for us. Even though he was completely without Sin, God poured out his Wrath upon him as if he where just as Evil as Haman or Hitler.
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