The Removal of restraint happens in Revelation 9.

II Thessalonians 2:7-8 tells us something is currently restraining the Son of Apoleia and that's why the Abomination of Desolation hasn't happened yet and in turn the Parusia and Rapture can't happen till after that.  The use of the word "he" in translations is misleading, it's not necessarily any person doing the restraining, but you could in my view say the "restrainer" is the Fifth Trumpet Angel if you wanted to.

Revelation 11:7 and 17:8 both tell us that at least one of the Beasts ascends out of the Bottomless Pit aka the Abyss aka the Great Deep.  At the beginning of Revelation Chapter 9 the Abyss is locked but after the Fifth Trumpet is sounded it is opened and entities in that Abyss begin to leave.  Revelation 20 further tells us that in the future this is where Satan will be restrained for a Thousand years.

This argument is not dependent on identifying either Beast with any specific personage in Revelation 9, the facts I just laid out should be enough to make it obvious.  None the less I feel a strong argument can be made for Apollyon being the Son of Apoleia.

It annoys me that this simple answer to the Restrainer mystery is so rarely what Prophecy teachers argue for.  The Early Church Writers tended to think the Restrainer was Rome for some reason, today most Pre-Tribbers say it's the Holy Spirit to try and make this obviously Pre-Trib destroying passage compatible.  And the "Pre-Wrath" view of Chris White tends to say it's Michael doing what he does in Revelation 12 and Daniel 12 even though that makes no grammatical sense at all, not to mention how it makes no Chronological sense in the context of Pre-Wrath, that makes more sense as a Midway Point argument.

In his most recent Podcast while addressing Pre-Tribbers Chris White says that Matthew 24:38's description of people "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" makes no sense in a context where any of the Trumpets have already happened but specifically singled out the Fifth.  He makes a similar argument about the "peace and safety" from I Thessalonians 5:3.

The problem with that argument is Revelation 11:10.  I view that verse of Matthew 24 as that same three and a half day period, same with the "peace and safety" verse.  Doesn't matter how much bad apocalyptic stuff had already happened, people think it's over now.  And I still think the End Times deception will be partly based on people thinking the first half of the 7 year period is the second half.

If you think "as the days of Noah were" must mean nothing catastrophic had happened yet, I direct you to this post where I discus overlooked details of Genesis 6.
https://midseventiethweekrapture.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-flood-did-not-destroy-earth-it.html

The Fifth Trumpet, The Flood and Hanukkah

Some in the past have argued for seeing some kind of thematic connection between The Fifth Trumpet in Revelation 9 and The Flood account in Genesis 7 and 8 based on parallel time periods.  First 40 days and then five months.  I'd noticed this months ago and mentioned it on this blog.

More recently (it came up while I was engaging with Flat Earthers) I've realized that the Abyss/Bottomless Pit could possibly be the same place as The Great Deep where much of the Flood waters were before The Flood.  Abyss has sometimes been translated as Deep.  There is no water there now, it's all on The Earth's surface, but it's interesting.

That makes the possibility of a connection here even stronger.  A period of 40 days of something coming out of the Deep to punish mankind for five months.  Very different but an interesting connection.

In the very first post on this blog I argued that the opening of The Abyss in Revelation 9 is the removal of Restraint mentioned in II Thessalonians 2.  And I've discussed how the Antichrist's Resurrection is defined as him ascending out of The Bottomless Pit.  I do not consider those arguments dependent on identifying The Antichrist or False Prophet with anyone specific in Revelation 9, we can debate Apollyon all day. The point is nothing can ascend out of The Abyss before Revelation 9 happens.  I'll return to this later.

Could this connection mean the 40 days of Revelation 9 happen on the Hebrew calendar about the same time as the 40 days of rain from The Flood account?

The Rain began on the 17th day of what was the Second month but is now the Eight.  I believe back in Pre-Flood times all months had 30 days because the Lunar and solar cycles were in sync putting the end of the rain on the 26th of Kislev.  But a repeat of that today would put 40 days that began on the 17th of the Eight month as ending on the 27th of Kislev.

Both of those days have in common that they are part of the the Eight Days of Hanukkah.

In my discussion of Winter Pagan holidays I pointed out that the claims of Anitochus Epiphanes being born on the 25th of Kislev or December are spurious, but that he did die seemingly during or near the first Hanukkah according to the accounts in both books of Maccabees.

I had also pointed out in that post that the Solstices were when pagans placed deaths and resurrections/conceptions, not births.  And I have also argued that IF The Antichrist is someone from the past who already lived coming back, it would most likely be be Antiochus Epiphanes, and certainly could only be a Seleucid ruler.

If this theory is true, I believe it would be the Hanukkah that occurs 9 months before the Yom Teruah that marks the Midway Point of the Week, when the Seventh Trumpet will be sounded and The Rapture will happen.

The first of Tishri is when Noah removed the Cover of the Ark in Genesis 8:13.  That fits being connected to the 7th Trumpet.  Perhaps the 6th Trumpet will then be linked to the first day of Tammuz (Genesis 8:5).

Further Update:  Reading Maccabees more carefully it seems less likely Epiphanies died that close to Hanukkah.  The First Hanukkah celebration being at the end of Chapter 4 in First Maccabees, with the account of Epiphanies demise being Chapter 6.

However Second Maccabees tells the story of Epiphanies Demise in Chapter 9 and then the first Hanukkah celebration at the beginning of Chapter 10 right after.  I generally consider Second Maccabees less reliable however.

The False Prophet outside Revelation

This shall be the first part of an ongoing study I shall do on the subject of The False Prophet.  The post I intend to be part 2 I actually posted a while go, with no long term plans for this subject in mind then.  I'll link to it at the end of this post.

The False Prophet is a key figure in The Book of Revelation, it's number three villain. "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." Forming a sort of counterfeit Trinity. He's first clearly introduced as the "beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." After Chapter 13 this figure is called The False Prophet.

The only reference to either of the Beasts prior to chapter 13 is chapter 11:7 "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. " Chapter 17:8 makes the beast who " shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" synonymous with the Beast who has 7 heads and 10 horns, and thus the first Beast of chapter 13. But the symbolism of the Beast is complicated, the 7 headed 10 horned Beast represents the individual of the Antichrist but also his Empire, his political system. Which is the Roman Empire, the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7, which is now being rebuilt via the European Union but also via Western policy in the Middle East. The False Prophet as his both religious and economic overseer is part of that system, so you could argue during any section that seems to only have one of them The Beast could be seen as both together.

I also believe the "ascendeth out of the bottomless pit", to be a characteristic of his resurrection.  And based on both The beast and the False Prophet being cast into the Lake of Fire without dying first, I think it's possible that both individuals are early partakers of the Second Resurrection.

We commonly discuss a lot of verses outside Revelation that are presumed to be about The Antichrist. But I don't see any other verses commonly taken to refer to The False Prophet. False Prophets, plural, appear often as do False Christs. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."-Matthew 24:24.

Many characters who serve as foreshadowings or prototypes of The Antichrist do have a False Prophet figure with them. Adonijah had Abiathar the Priest, Ahab had the unnamed False Prophet who had that dramatic scene with Micaiah. Also if you study the history of Antiochus Epiphanes and the Maccabees, there is Menelaus, the Benjamite Apostate High Priest who presided over the worship of the Abomination of Desolation.  As Lionel Luthor said in season 2 episode 22 of Smallville "Every Author has his Merlin".

However, actual specific Prophecies of this figure outside Revelation are not well known. I have seen it suggested that maybe many Prophecies assumed to be about The Antichrist really refer to the False Prophet, or even that some refer to both together in some way. But those suggesting this usually don't  elaborate on it.

This apparent lack of reference outside Revelation was a problem for me.  I firmly believe Revelation does not really introduce anything entirely new, it unlocks the mysteries of what came before.

Then I noticed this little detail of Isaiah 9, in verses 14&15. "Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail." The word translated "ancient" really means "elder". So we have a political leader being paired with a lying prophet.

Small little reference, but once I had noticed this I started getting all kinds of ideas.

 Some interpret "out of the Earth" as meaning Jewish, while "out of the sea" for the first Beast means Gentile, based on Daniel 7:3. And bring that into how they interpret passages outside Revelation. Passages that seem to make him Jewish (chiefly John 5:43, to me this is hypothetical in context and thud not good to build doctrine on,) they assume to be the second beast.  And those that seem to make him gentile they assume the first.  I think that doctrinal assumption is hard to prove however.

I saw one study recently suggest the "He" of Daniel 9:27 is The False Prophet, not the first beast.  "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate".  They argued that Revelation 13 makes clear it's the second beast who actually sets up the Image and enforces it's worship.  My view on this verse has changed lately.

Key I think is II Thessalonians 2:3. No words are mistranslated here, but it's one of those occasions where the translators felt the need to change the order of the words for the sake of English grammar. Which is often needed, but here I would render it this way.

 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the unveiling of the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition.

 It appears we have two titles of the Antichrist listed side by side. He had many titles, often more then one used in the same chapter or even same verse, but simply listed in succession is unusual.

What if it's really referring to the unveiling of two people? The following verses are clearly talking about a single individual man deifying himself in the Temple. But maybe that person is the first mentioned, and the second is his supporter facilitating him in this act? If the Son of Perdition is the False Prophet rather then The Antichrist as assumed, that could be interesting.

The term can also be argued to apply to both Beasts equally, along with the phrase "goeth into Perdition" in Revelation 17. They're the two individuals who are sent into "The Lake of Fire" first in Revelation 19, before the Millennium rather then after it like everyone else destined to go there.

In verse 9 of II Thessalonians 2, it talks about his coming being "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,". We know from Revelation 13 that the miracles are performed by the False Prophet. One could argue this reference to miracles is tied to how the Man of Sin is unveiled. I argue in the first post of this blog that the restrainer being removed refers to the unlocking of the Abyss is in Revelation 9, where Apollyon and many other entities are being restrained by chains.

That belief does not require identifying either beast with any personage in Revelation 9.  The point is nothing (save Jesus himself when he went there) can ascend out of the abyss before then. Which is a problem for Pre-Wrath.

Chris White objects to viewing Apollyon as a villain, or among those restrained in the Abyss.  He sees him as a good angel that God simply put in charge of overseeing this.  He compares him to the Angel that carried out the killing of the first born on Passover, or the plague that occurred after David's census.  He misses that for the first of those examples the LORD himself did it, Exodus 12:29.  And I would point out the Angel of Death himself inevitably goes into the Lake of Fire.

The word translated Perdition is Apoleia. Apollyon from Revelation 9:11 is a related word, derived from the same roots. Apoleia means destruction (perdition is a King James English synonym for Destruction) and Apollyon means Destroyer. It would be accurate poetically to call Apollyon the Son of Apoleia.

 The other name for Apollyon is Abaddon, his Hebrew name. Most people don't know that this name does appear in the Hebrew Scriptures, it's Strongs number is 11. The KJV always translates it "destruction" but it's not the only word for destruction, so it's important to differentiate. The verses it appears in are Job 26:6, Job 28:22, Job 31:12, Psalm 88:11, Proverbs 15:11, and Proverbs 27:20.

It's used as the name of a place, not a individual. Being frequently linked with Sheol (Hell/Hades) I take it to be an Old Testament name of the place the New Testament calls the Abyss/Bottomless Pit and Tartaros (Translated Hell in 2 Peter 4). So the ruler of the place could've become named after it, or visa-verse.

That Apollyon/Abaddon is called "the angel of the bottomless pit" causes a lot of confusion. We're used to using "Angel" as a technical  term for immortal created beings who are certainly not Human.  But it's really just a noun that means messenger, as is the Hebrew equivalent Malak. The KJV translators were rarely willing to translate it rather then transliterate it in the New Testament. But three passages where there was no denying that it refers to a human being rather then an Angel are Matthew 11:10, Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27 which all quote Malachi 3:1 in reference to John the Baptist. The word is indeed also affiliated with Prophets who are also messengers of God, and False Prophets who are messengers of false gods. Revelation 9:11 uses it in the same form (there are many different forms of Angelos used in the NT texts) as those passages.  I also believe the Angels of the Seven Church were humans in those congregations that had the gift of Prophecy (not monarchical "Pastors" as some have argued).

Outside The Bible Apollyon was a Homeric name for Apollo, which many have read significance into.  Like in Aeschylus's play Agamemnon, where Cassandra says repeatedly.

"Apollo, thou destroyer, O Apollo, Lord of fair streets, Apollyon to me."

To me that identification fits Apollyon being the False Prophet rather then Antichrist.  Because Apollo in Greek mythology was never affiliated with Kingship but he was very much the god of Prophecy.

I think the difference between the resurrection of the false prophet and the resurrection of The First Beast is The World won't witness the latter.  I think The False Prophet died in the distant past and will after the opening of the Abyss be allowed to resurrect.  Perhaps one layer of meaning to the second Beast rising "out of the Earth" refers to the Earth his body decomposed into.

But both lives of The Antichrist are end times, one ends in the 70th week, the second plays out entirely within it.

Part 2 of the Study.

The Seventh and Last Trumpet

 First I want to address those who refute the Seventh Trumpet view by claiming the "Last Trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) being called the "Trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) means it can't be sounded by an Angel.  Everything in Heaven is of God, and the Seventh Trumpet being clearly separated from the rest in it's sounding makes it unique.  In Revelation 15 and 16 the Seven bowls of Gods Wrath are poured out by Angels, even though we all know the Wrath in question is Of God, the Trumpets are the same.

A debate exists over whether or not the "Last Trump" that signals the Rapture in Thessalonians, and Corinthians and Matthew 24 is the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11 or the Last Trumpet sounded on the Feast of Trumpets.

Chris White argues it's neither and that we should look at the Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10.

It is true that the Biblical Hebrew text does not explicitly link Trumpets to the First of Tishri feast in Leviticus 23:24, that's an assumption we make based on Trumpets being added in translation, and extra Biblical traditions about that day. Chris White however seems to assume the Trumpets affiliated with the First of Tishri are the Ram's Horns. But a book I have on Hebrew customs (by Ethan Allen) says Silver Trumpets and Shofar were both sounded on that day.

Numbers 10:10 does say the Silver Trumpets are to be sounded "Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months". Now "solemn days" in the Hebrew texts refers to the "appointed times' or High Holy Days, meaning all of them outlined in Leviticus 23. And the beginning of each month would also include the First of Tishri.

The single word translated "blowing of trumpets" in Leviticus 23:24 is T@ruw`ah (ter-oo-aw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 8643. Is used in Numbers 10:5&6 where it is translated "Alarm".
"When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys."
In verse 7 it's a different word translated alarm, but one that is probably the root of the final syllable of Taruwah.

At any rate I'd agree we can't build solid doctrine on any extra Biblical assumptions about Rosh Hoshana. But this one may have more of a Biblical basis then he realized. The First of Tishri is the one day there is double the reason to sound those Trumpets. And the only thing we are told about it in Leviticus is a key word also used in Numbers 10 about blowing Trumpets.

Actually Psalm 81 I feel kind of refutes the claim that there is no Biblical basis for linking Trumpets to the First of Tishri.  In verse 3 Asaph wrote "Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day."  The only day that is both a New Moon and one of the Leviticus 23 ordained major Feast Days is the First of Tishri.  Here though Shofar is used rather then the word for the Silver Trumpets.

I don't think we should distinguish between the Rams Horns and Silver Trumpets in terms of how they may symbolically point to Heavenly/Eschatology Trumpets. Whether it's the verses indisputably about The Rapture or the Seven Trumpets in Revelation. Earthly Trumpets needed to be made from separate materials for Earthly reasons, but the Heavenly Trumpets are probably not really made from any Earthly substance at all. Silver is Levitcully a symbol of Redemption, and Ram's Horns are taken from Sacrificial offerings.  So symbolically both point to Jesus as our Sin Offering, who's voice is sometimes described as "like a Trumpet".  And the New Testament only uses one Greek word for Trumpet.

Hosea 5:8 Poetically uses both words for Trumpet as if their synonyms. But the KJV renders one of them Cornet to avoid sounding redundant.

He's also wrong that the Trumpet themes through out the Prophets are always the Silver Trumpets.  Hosea 5:8 is the only time the Silver Trumpets are mentioend in the Porphetic Books.  And Psalm 98 the only time they're in the Psalms.  Both have the Shofar also in the same verse.  Every other Trumpet reference in the Psalms or Prophets it is the Shofar.  And Plenty seem linked to The Rapture/Day of The LORD.

I believe that the references to the Trumpets in Revelation are meant to draw on all the earlier Trumpet themes of Scripture. Both the Silver and the Rams Horns. Because I view Revelation as explaining the rest of Scripture, and unveiling all things that were before mysteries. Meaning if the Trumpet that signals the Rapture isn't in Revelation, then Revelation has arguably failed to serve part of it's purpose.

Post-Tirbbers often agree with seeing the Rapture in the same Revelation passages Mid-Tirbbers do, but make it compatible with their view by garbling the chronology of Revelation in ways that are ridiculous.  Those would also agree with my on the Seventh Trumpet being sounded on he First of Tishri, I would point out that there is no Biblical basis for God post Exodus ever returning to Tishri rather then Nisan years.

Of the passages outside Revelation viewed as being the most indisputably about The Rapture, a Trumpet sounding is the most nearly universal detail.  Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52, and I feel the most solid Old Testament reference in Joel.  Yet Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath people refuse to look for a Trumpet in their placement in Revelation, and Pre-Wrathers feel their position is proved by Rapture signs only used in the Olivite Discourse yet never by Paul.

Both Post-Tribbers and Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath supporters love to refute the Pre-Trib argument that Matthew 24 isn't referring to the same coming/gathering as Paul by pointing out all the parallels between that account and Paul's from Thessalonians and Corinthians. There are at least 20. But what many either miss or ignore is that a number of those same parallels apply to the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11.

We have a Trumpet sounding followed by great voices in Heaven. The use of the word "Archangel" in Corinthians is a different from then when Jude uses it of Michael. It ends with an "n" making it technically plural in Greek.

We have The Four Cherubim declaring God's Wrath is come, in a way that makes clear it hadn't come before the 7th Trumpet.

We have talk about it now being the "Time of the Dead" and time to judge and reward the saints. That sounds like the Bema Judgment to me.

I also think "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament" could correlate to "The sign of the Son of Man" being seen in the Heavens. One can argue the Ark of the New Testament is the Cross on which The Lamb's Blood was shed for our Sins.

There is lighting and another Earthquake. The Seventh Trumpet account lacks reference to the Sun or Moon being darkened. But this could be left over effect for the Fourth Trumpet, and/or when the Smoke form the Abyss covered The Earth following the Fifth.

Also there were no Chapter breaks originally, to Revelation 12's beginning is still the Seventh Trumpet.  The word Harpatzo is used, and stars fall from heaven.  And possibly a layer of meaning here is astronomical clues pointing to the New Moon of Tishri.

Then after the rest of 12 and 14 continue laying out the Mid-Trib drama, we come to 14.

The 144 Thousand are seen on Mt. Zion, and it sounds to me like they're in their Resurrected state, with talk of being "Redeemed from the Earth" and being the "First Fruits". I do not allegorize the 144 Thousand, they're a specific group of believer. But I do think their part of the Church and Resurrected already here. A better argument certainly then the weak one that the Multitude in Chapter 7 are Resurrected already.

And latter we have "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man" in verse 14. And with it's Harvest imagery.

And further reading shows the pouring out of God's Wrath is still only about to happen.

And then supplemental to what follows the Seventh Trumpet, is what proceeds it. It seems to immediately follow the Resurrection and Rapture of the Two Witnesses. Again, I do not allegorize the Witnesses, they're Enoch and Elijah to me. But I do think it's possible their Rapture could have a connection to ours. Their being taken out of the Earth alive before are each seen as types of The Rapture after all.

I think there is more then enough connection between the Seventh Trumpet and the Last Trump to see them as connected.

Revelation 9:20 shows the Image of the Beast hasn't been set up yet. Because the Idols these people are being judged for worshiping "neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:". So the life like Image of the beast isn't here yet.

Actually, Revelation 9 is a major Death nail for the Pre-Wrath position. No damned individual should be able to Ascend out of the Bottomless Pit before it is unlocked. But the Pre-Wrath position needs this to be well after the Abomination of Desolation, which can't happen until after The Beast ascends out of the Bottomless Pit. We're told he's ascended out of it already when he kills The Two Witnesses.

I believe Revelation 9 is the Removal of The Restrainer.  As I explained in this blog's first post.

Pre-Wrath people usually insist the ministry of The Witnesses is the second half of the 70th week. But Malachi clearly says Elijah returns BEFORE the great and terrible Day of the LORD.

I've also decided I see Joel 2:1 as the Sixth Trumpet, what happens after it sounds has some clear parallels to what happens in Revelation 9:13 and up, with a bizarre Supernatural army of Fiery Horsemen.

And so Joel 2:15 I see as the Seventh Trumpet, where the people are Gathered and the Groom collects his Bride. Between them in verse 10 the Sun and Moon are described as being darkened.

I did a Google search on the subject, and it seems no one else has noticed this yet, Which surprises me. Many I've seen, like in J.R. Church's book on the Minor Prophets, link Joel Chapter 2 to the Fifth Trumpet, though to me that doesn't work quite as well. I don't like Allegorizeing the Locust of Revelation 9 into an Army, when the next Judgment is explicitly defined as an Army. To me the creatures let out of the Abyss are Demons taking temporary physical forms, like the ones they sometimes take from TransYughothian Ceremonial Magick rituals. That's the significance of The Smoke.

The Invading Army in Joel 2 is usually either taken as the Gog and Magog Invasion, or Armageddon. But to me it seems to be placed before The Rapture, which doesn't fit the latter. And I've become convinced that the former happens after the Millennium.

It seems people identifying as Pre-Wrath think a lot still happens between the Abomination of Desolation and the Rapture. Enough to account for months or even years. Basically, to them the Persecution of The Church the Matthew 24 Olivite Discourse describes happening before the Abomination of Desolation, and as correlating to the Fifth Seal, actually happens after the Abomination.

Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 clears places the "Falling Away" before the Abomination of Desolation.  This falling Away is seen by Pre-Wrather as correlating to the Matthew 24 persecution.

There are two coming end times Persecutions I believe. As I explain in the "Great Tribulation" post.

I believe the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet is on the Feast of Trumpets.  So it's not either/or between those two options.

Why Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath both fail

I was not quite as decided on this as I am now when I wrote the first draft of what's below.

I used to be firmly in what is called the Post-Trib camp. (Even though unlike many Post-Tribbers I've always been completely against Replacement Theology.)  And certainly never liked the Pre-Trib argument.  What Chuck Missler explains about the uniqueness of the Church alters my perspective however.  Once you understand that not all saved are part of The Church then the references to believers on the Earth during the Tribulation no longer inherently contradicts the Pre-Trib view. Chuck also seems certain that if you're not Pre-Trib on the Rapture your problem is Ecclesiology not Eschatology. Well I am the same as Chuck on Ecclesiology, yet I still have issues with the Pre-Trib view. I'm still not sold on the Pre-Trib argument, however rather then being firmly Post-Trib I'm now leaning towards a Mid-Trib, I had also considered the Pre-Wrath view.

First off, the Pre-Trib camp seems to consider Imminence their cornerstone argument. Verses where the Bible tells us to "Expect" The Return of Jesus at any moment.  Problem is the intent of those verses aren't about chronology, their about the attitude believers should take and how we should behave.  Pre-Tribbers insist it means that the Rapture must be the absolute next thing to happen Chronologically, even though plenty of Prophecies have already been fulfilled while we've been waiting (Israel Restored, the first portion of Isaiah 19 ect.) Now it's the Gog&Magog invasion that can't possibly occur until after the Rapture. But logically before 1948 they'd have had to say the same thing about Israel being reestablished. Then till 67 them reclaiming all of Jerusalem.

When my Dad first starting teaching me how to use a gun, he told me before even letting me touch it to always treat it like it's loaded, even when I know for certain it is not. The point of that instruction is to make sure I'm always very very very careful with it, which is a very smart approach to take. But it doesn't change the fact that an unloaded gun still needs to be loaded before you can actually shoot something with it.

The Bible verses that imply Imminence are there to tell us to behave like he can return at any moment, to before committing any Sin think "Is that what I want to be doing in the middle of when Jesus comes back?" and to motivate us to work tirelessly in spreading the Gospel and doing God's work by acting like we could run out of time at any time. After all, in a sense it does happen for you immediately when you die. But the fact remains that there are at least two Bible passages that make it clear the Rapture won't occur at least until after the "Abomination of Desolation".

Matthew 24's account of the Olivet Discourse reaches the "Abomination of Desolation" in verse 15. Then it goes on describing more End Times drama in very broad terms until verses 29-31 when Jesus (And Pre-Tribbers tend to ignore this) explicitly says

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 4, and clearly described as AFTER a tribulation. And also in this narrative it seems to be clearly after the "Abomination of Desolation".  It has the coming in the clouds, the gathering, the Trumpet being sounded.  Some may consider that the Resurrection is mentioned disproved this being the same event.  Well 1 Corinthians 15:52 doesn't mention the gathering or the coming in the clouds, only the Trumpet and the Resurrection and the living in Christ being changed.

I should add that the term "elect" contrary to Calvinist assumptions is not always a synonym for the saved, in many places it seems to refer rather to Israel. Doug Hamp has written a book on that subject and been interviews about it on "Prophecy in The news". Both he and Gary are of course Pre-Trib, and they'd probably respond that this part of the Olivet Discourse isn't about The Rapture because it refers to the Elect. But regardless of what that one word strictly means, this passage still clearly uses a lot of common imagery with 1 Thessalonians 4, the Trumpet, the Clouds ect and so on.

The word Elect can refer to more then one thing, it's simply a word meaning "chosen". When Jesus returns on a White Horse at the end of the 70th week Israel will not be gathered to him, he'll be going to where Israel is in hiding.   Israel and The Church are both his "Elect" in different senses, we both have the opportunity to be part of very special covenants that not all of the Saved have the opportunity to be part of. With neither meaning would I consider how the Calvanist co-opt the word to fit their version of "predestination" valid.

The only other argument I've seen Pre-Tribbers try to prove this isn't the same as 1 Thessalonians 4 is that Jesus refers to sending many Angels, while Paul refers to the voice "The Archangel".  First of all it is perfectly consistent to say that many Angels gather while one Archangel is shouting.  Second the Greek text in Thessalonians is "Archangelon" which is technically plural.  So I feel that back up a Seventh Trumpet view, which refers to many voices in Heaven.

Pre-Wrathers and Post-Tribbers may feel Mathew 24 favors their model over Mid-Trib because a lot seems to happen between the Abomination and the Gathering.  It may seem like a lot happens, but it's all described pretty broadly, and sometimes a lot can happen in very little time.  To me this could all fit easily into the three and a half days the Two Witnesses are dead.

2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2.

First, many take the language of "By letter as from us" in verse 2 as referring to a letter falsely attributed to Paul. It is not, he's referring to people misunderstanding or outright misusing what he said in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4. He certainly is referring to that exact same event when he says "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". Now he goes on to explain in no uncertain terms.

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I put "and" in bold, because some Pre-Tribbers like to insist only the first of these two things has to happen first.

The Pre-Trib camp likes to make this fit their view by insisting the "Restrainer" mentioned latter is The Holy Spirit. Even if it where, that doesn't undermine the clear chronological implication that Paul is unambiguously saying that the Gathering Together will NOT happen till AFTER the "Man of Sins" is revealed. Yet so many Pre-Tribbers insist the Church will never encounter that individual. That's part of the danger of the Pre-Trib view to me, The Bible gives us all these clues about his identity for a reason, the Church should be using them, not just insisting "We'll never meet him anyway".

Now, let's get into this "Restrainer" verse, first of all the KJV rendering in verse 7 is.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

There could possibly be translational issues with the phrase rendered "taken out of the way" but that's incidental.

It's "He who now letteth" is who is commonly called here the "Restrainer" Restrain is what the Greek word translated "letteth" actually means. The previous verse uses the same word in a different form and the KJV translated it "Withholdeth". In verse 6 it's a present tense verb, there it should be "restraining" and in verse 7 "letteth now let" should be "restrains will continue to do so".

The use of "he" in verse 7 is added by the translators, they're not in the Greek. It is "what" not "who" that identifies the restrainer in verse 6. Chuck Missler insists it's "what" only because it's Gender neutral. The Holy Spirit is never described with Gender Neutral pronouns, poetically he's feminine more often, but is also frequently masculine. However he never lacks gender. It could very well be an object not a personage.

Job makes clear God does restrain Satan, and many verses describe God as restraining Sin, and those verses get cited to prove this verse is referring to The Holy Spirit, but none of those other verses about restraint affiliate it with a specific person of The Trinity.

The Pre-Wrath camp believes The Restrainer is Michael. I agree with them that Daniel 12:1 and Revelation 12:7 correspond. But to define him taking an offensive against Satan as ceasing to restrain something is silly to me.

Revelation 20 says

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. .............. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth

Being locked in The Abyss is what will restrain Satan during the Millennium. Right now Satan isn't restrained, but something else is which Paul alludes to. That removal of Restraint is in Revelation 9, when The Abyss is first opened.

I believe that the restrainer being removed refers to when the Abyss is opened in Revelation 9. I believe it's the lock keeping the Abyss sealed and the entities inside chained. Note, the word translated "perdition" in "Son of Predition" is Apolyea, a Greek word related to Apollyon, Apollyon is just the proper noun form. He is being restrained because he's in the Abyss, the removal of that restraint is what happens when the 5th trumpet is sounded.

Some I know object to viewing Apollyon as an evil entity however. But that's incidental, my view does not require viewing either the First or Second beast as being a specific personage in Revelation 9. The fact simply remains that The Abyss is unlocked and things restrained there are set free.

Revelation 11:7 and 17:8 both refer to " the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit". The death nail of the Pre-Wrath view (which places all the Trumpets after the Abomination of Desolation) is that no damned personage can ascendeth out of the abyss before it's unlocked.

I believe this is an idiom of The Beast's resurrection, when his mortal wound is healed. In 17:8 it's followed by "and goeth into perdition". The Beast and The False Prophet are in Revelation 19 cast alive into the Lake of Fire without apparently being killed first. I believe this implies that their early partakers of the Second Resurrection. Their also the first two personages sent there. No one else goes there till after The Millennium.

So I think it's possible both ascend out of The Abyss. I have studies that deal more with that.

Another problem Revelation 9 has for the Pre-Wrath view is verse 20. " that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:" The idols being worshiped as this time don't move or walk or hear. The lifelike Image of The Beast from Revelation 13 clearly has not been set up yet.

So to me, both these passages are insurmountable obstacles for the Pre-Trib view, and Pre-Wrath also. But I am very open to Mid-Trib/Seventh Trumpet.