Messiah The Prince of Daniel 9

The 70 weeks Prophecy four times refers to an awaited personage at the the end of the 69 weeks and/or the 70th week.

Messiah The Prince in verse 25
The Messiah in verse 26
The Prince that shall come in verse 26
He in verse 27

The standard view among Christians who are Premillennial Futurists (and even some Preterists) has been that the first two are Jesus Christ and the last two the person we commonly call The Antichrist.  Chris White however promotes a theory he didn't invent himself that makes each of the four something different. predicating it largely on how unclear it is which of the earlier personages the He in verse 27 appears to be.

However most people reading this Prophecy without a Christian starting point, as well as many Christians who are Preterist, see the clear grammatical logic as saying all four are the same person.

When verse 25 says to await the coming of a Messiah The Prince and then verse 26 says The Prince that shall come logic dictates that it's the same Prince.  And if there aren't two or three different people refereed to earlier, figuring out who He is, isn't that complicated.

It's also pretty much unique to Christians to see a Villain in any of the four references.  Because you see the "he" after "Abominations" in the KJV of verse 27 isn't in the Hebrew.  So the first He is not the one who sets it/them up.  That can agree with seeing him as The Antichrist however, because in Revelation while The Image is of The Beast, it's the second beast (False Prophet) that sets it up and enforces it's worship.

I'm going to suggest that the traditional Christian view, and this "only one person is mentioned" view can both be right, via the principle of Double Fulfillment.  I've already documented that there are Jews without a Christian bias who see the 70th Week as yet future and separated from the first 69.  But I've also argued that seeing the 70th Week as being entirely fulfilled from 30-37 AD is more plausible then my fellow Futurists realize.  Recently I've argued that some of our assumptions about how the End Times 70th Week will play out are wrong.

The suggestion that there is a Prophecy which is fulfilled by both Jesus and the Antichrist is certainly controversial.  But Solomon was a type of both Jesus and The Antichrist.  When doing well he was the near fulfillment of the Messianic Kingdom.  But when he backslid, the number 666 was directly linked to him.  Samson likewise has been argued to prefigure both, especially by those who see Genesis 49 as implying a Danite Antichrist.  Saul could also be viewed this way.

The word "Antichrist" means, false Christ, or counterfeit Christ, or opposing Christ, or replacement Christ, or enemy of Christ. or antithesis of Christ, or opposite of Christ.  I've seen several different meanings argued for it, but they all involve Christ, which is Greek for Messiah.  Many Old Testament types of The Antichrist were anointed by true Prophets of God (Jeroboam and Jehu, also Solomon and Saul I already mentioned).  Jesus refereed to Judas as someone He Choose, and Judas could perform divine Miracles by Jesus authority.  Yet he was a Devil and the Son of Perdition.

And at any-rate, he'll need to be able to make Messianic Prophecies apply to him if he'll be a credible Messiah Ben-Joseph.

Given what I argued on those posts I linked to.  This would mean his Mortal Wounding is at the beginning of the 70th week.  We tend to assume that his Resurrection happens soon after his death.  But I notice that there is no reference in Revelation to The Beast being active during the first half of The Week.  The first undisputed appearance of The Beast is when he kills The Two Witnesses, and hes' already ascended out of The Pit by then.

I do agree that The First Horseman is likely the man who'll become The Beast.  But I've become inclined to view all of the first 6 Seals as being right at the start of The Week, due to my Sixth Seal view and other things.

Maybe the opening of the First Seal has him doing his own Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, after winning many wars.  Doing it maybe even on the same day Jesus did his, the 10th of Nisan.  Then he is Crowned Messiah Ben-Joseph.  But the next thing to happen is the Red Horseman.  Who I argued in that same Four Horseman study could be The Antichrist's killer because of his Sword.  And many Christians and Jews will assume that that killer is The Antichrist/Armillus.

My main False Prophet theory wouldn't have it be possible for him to have The False Prophet with him already at this point.  But I could be wrong, he could also have a Prophet with him all through those Wars.  They could together claim to Christians to be The Two Witnesses, and to Jews that they're Messiah Ben-Joseph and/or Elijah and/or The Prophet like unto Moses and/or the Priest of the order of Melchizedek and/or Enoch.  And then people might selectively use the day=year theory to say that The Witnesses being dead three and a half days really means three and a half years.

This deception could fit what Perry Stone (who I respect and consider truly Saved) is predicting.  He's saying that The Temple will be under construction during the first half of the week, after Elijah/Witnesses conquers the Muslims.  Then The Mahdi will conquer Jerusalem and kill them and stop the sacrifice sin The Temple right after it was just finished being constructed.

The Lost Tribes and Bible Prophecy

I know all the arguments out there against thinking The Lost Tribes are a thing.  I've heard it from Chuck Missler and Chris White.

I know that the Levites moved South when Jeroboam fell into idolatry.  And Chuck insists we can infer everyone not Ok with the idolatry did the same.  Even though it's repeatedly demonstrated that The North had a believing remnant.  God never tells his people that as a rule they must leave a country if it's sinful, we should be trying to make our countries better.  The Levites had a special purpose linked to The Temple.

I know that they claim Assyrian Records show the deportation to be not just incomplete but even it seems only a very small portion from select regions.  I prefer to believe Biblical Records over Secular ones, which say people remained but not a whole lot.  Most of those that did intermarried with Gentiles to become the Samaritans, who Jesus considered not Children of Israel.

See the problem with the point about the Assyrian Records is the Deportation happened in phases.  Just as the Southern Kingdom's did.  And those records cited deal with only one of what were at least 3 deportations.  The records of the 722 BC (724 BC in Usser) deportation is what people focus on.  But 1 Chronicles 5 alludes to earlier deportation of specifically the Trans-Jordan tribes, and additional deportations likely happened during Sennacherib's campaign against Hezekiah, or when they deported King Manasseh, the latter probably explains when Simeon was deported.

I know Josiah and Hezikiah and Asa had their special Second Passover where they invited northern Kingdom Survivors to come South and join them.  There were far from complete, but Anna the Prophetess I think descends from those Asherites.

I know the return from captivity records people from every Tribe but Dan returning. That Return wasn't complete even for the Southern Tribes. After even the last major return in the days of Nehemiah a significant population remained behind.

I know that after the captivity The Bible often treats Judah and Israel as synonymous.  But that is poetic in nature.

Even if all those points were as completely valid as they make them seem.  The Fact remains that Bible Prophecy speaks of a reunification of Judah and Joseph/Ephraim as Eschatological/End Times.

Chuck Missler in his commentary on Ezekiel 37 actually goes on about all those points as if Ezekiel 37 proved his point, Judah and Joseph are one.  The entire point of that reference is it's foretelling their reunification as part of that Prophecy.  And I also disagree with Chuck's desire to remove the literal Bodily Resurrection from this passage.  Yes it is about Israel's restoration as a Nation.  But it's not 1948, it's them being restored in belief, during The Millennium, after the First Resurrection is finished.  The references to the Resurrected David being there should leave that beyond dispute.

Now the thing neglected by people who tend to want to see this reunification as all flowers and roses is some of the Prophecies on this theme seem to predict more conflict between Judah and Ephraim, like they often had before.  Isaiah 9-11 may or may not have an End Times second application, but Isaiah 28 is indisputably End Times.  Zachariah 9-11 may also be of interest.  But on Isaiah 9-11, those that see the End Times there usually think The Assyrian is The Antichrist.  But in Ezekiel, The Assyrian is the Terrible of The Nations, who kills The Antichrist.  Isaiah 11 seems to me to allude to both The Antichrist and The False Prophet when speaking of Ephraim.  Jeremiah 4 and Micah 1 are also worth considering.

Jeremiah and Ezekiel when foretelling the Southern Kingdom's coming fall to Babylon compared it to the earlier fall of the Northern Kingdom.  God is saying you fell into the same error so I'll do unto you as I did unto them.  Well it's interesting that the captivity of Judah happened twice, it had a second fulfillment under The Romans.

Lots of Christians see an eschatological significance to much of Hosea.  But they insist the End Times application must manifest in Israel as a whole, even though the book is about Ephraim.

Chris White makes a solid argument that The Antichrist might claim to be the non Biblical Messiah Ben-Joseph.  I've talked on that before and how he leaves out the whole Northern Kingdom aspect of that. I also discus some of my thoughts on British Israelism there.

I also have a post where I respond to his view on Daniel 7.

Hosea 13:7-8 "Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them. "

I don't think it's a coincidence that this uses the same three animals used of the first three Beasts in Daniel 7.  Yes God uses them of himself coming upon Israel, but he often Judges Israel by foreign nations fighting wars with them. But if that's the case where is the fourth beast?  I'm speculating it could be viewed as Ephraim, in the sense that Ephraim represents the Northern Kingdom in general.

Deuteronomy 33:17 "His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh."

Jeremiah 31:18 " I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God."

And remember the Idols Jeroboam set up were Bulls, modeled after The Golden Calf.  Bulls are horned animals, they don't have 10 but that's irreverent, they're a horned animal.  The number being 10 could mean 10 nations that are claiming to be the Ten Lost Tribes.

I think the 4th World Empire is a hydride Empire, Edom/Rome (the Iron in both) and Ephraim/Dan.  I think in the Statue of Daniel 2 Ephraim would be the Miry Clay.  Many have interpreted the Miry Clay to represent the "Barbarian" tribes mingling with Rome as the Western Empire fell apart.  Those are the same tribes often identified as being entirely or at least partly descended from The Lost Tribes in British Israelism/Franco Israelism/Britam.  Usually those two Biblical connections for them aren't made by the same commentator however, (Example: Britam sees the Miry Clay as Ishmaelites).

Chris White continues to be skeptical of seeing the European Union as the Fourth Beast because it has more then 10 nations. I've posted one response to his objections before.  But I now have a better one.  The Ten Horns are not the entire confederation, only part of it as they'ree only part of The Beast.

I think the Ten Horns are the nine European nations Britam claims are Israelite nations plus Germany (who Britam wants to see Edom but they're really more like the other supposedly Israelite nations then the Edomite ones).  The iron teeth are Edom/Rome and hence Italy, Spain, Portugal and Western Mediterranean Islands like Malta and Corsica.  And the nails/claws of brass/bronze going back to Daniel 2 would be Modern Greece, and perhaps to a lesser extent Turkey/Cyprus.  I know people like to list all kinds of reasons Turkey will never become part of the EU, but militarily speaking it effectively already is via it's involvement in both the WEU and NATO.

That even those don't cover the entire EU (mostly it's eastern Europe that is left out) isn't a big deal because they're still not the entire body of The Beast clearly, but they're the key clues emphasized.

In the closing verses of Obadiah, the prophecy of the finale Destruction of Edom seems to allude to some Judgment coming on Ephraim/Samaria at the same time.

I made a post arguing against the Jerusalem as Mystery Babylon view.  What I have considered since then is that maybe Mystery Babylon could be Samaria, looking at passages like Micah 1.  Or maybe a different Northern Kingdom Capital within the land allotted to Ephraim and/or Manasseh.

In Hosea God says he shall avenge the Blood of Jezreel against the House of Jehu.  Jehu I've argued could be a type of The Antichrist.

Chris White has argued that Armageddon in Revelation might refers to Hadadrimmon rather then Megiddo.  Zechariah 12:11 refers to both, and both like Jezreel are in or by the Valley of Jezreel.

In Revelation 16 Armageddon is the gathering place, not where the battle itself is.  I think maybe The Beast gathers his armies after the 6th Bowl and then marches south.  Attacks whatever city Mystery Babylon is in the Mountains of Samaria (could that be why it's on 7 hills?) because we're told The beast will turn on The Harlot.  Then he marches on Jerusalem, but Jerusalem he won't destroy because Jesus comes back to defend Jerusalem.

Follow Up Post

Gog and Magog: After the Millennium or before?

Chris White has been making a good argument against the popular notion of Ezekiel 38 and 39 happening before or during the 70th Week, and that it is fully the same as Revelation 20.
http://bibleprophecytalk.com/bpt-the-gog-m...ing-of-the-war/
http://bibleprophecytalk.com/bpt-the-gog-m...tries-involved/

His arguments are very good and have me convinced. Still I do think it's possible that there may be a near lesser fulfillment, but Doctrinally I have come to think mainly it's about the end of the Millennium.

The concept of Double Fulfillment is generally only applied to Prophecies where the near fulfillment has already happened. Where we see the final fulfillment as being in the 70th Week or the

start of the Millennium. But I think we should consider that it does apply to other areas as well.

Chris makes more of a point then he should, I think, out of Ezekiel 38&39's relationship to the immediately proceeding chapters of Ezekiel, 33-37 mainly. "And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying" is always referring to a new vision. That there isn't a date given here probably means he had it the same day as the preceding visions, but it's still a distinct vision. But also even within a single vision what's foretold isn't always purely chronological. And even within the context of the Gog and Magog Prophecy, I've seen people argue that Ezekiel 39 actually happens before 38, though I'm not sure I understand that logic.

It's funny actually because we keep using the phrase "God and Magog" in specific reference to Ezekiel 38&39 even though Biblically that exact phrase appears only in Revelation 20. In Ezekiel it's clear that Magog is the name of the Land and Gog an individual from there who rules Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. And I keep seeing people read that same distinction into Revelation 20, we should use Scripture to pertinent Scripture but not in conflict with the clear Grammar of a phrase. Grammatically in Revelation 20 ""Gog and Magog" both refer to the location or tribes.

I see this inconsistency in usage as perhaps explained by Ezekiel 39. "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog."

People like to talk about how seeing the Gog and Magog invasion in modern Times requires allegorizeing the references to Bows and Arrows and Horses and stuff. And Chris suggests that technology will sort of phase out during the Millennium so that solves that problem.

First off I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the suggestion that technology would die out during the Millennium or even New Jerusalem. This sounds like a somewhat Hippie minded notion of what a Utopia would be, and carries the implication that maybe God doesn't like technology. The Law of Moses made Ancient Israel as technologically sophisticated as a nation could be at that time, so no I don't think technological advancement is inherently bad.

And the people who think it must be allegorized are ignorant of the Hebrew Language. The word for "Arrows" is even in the 1611 KJV translated a variety of different ways. "Missile" is in fact the most literal translation of what the word means, and the word for Bow means anything used to launch said missile. Jeremiah 50:9 says "their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain." if you study the Hebrew words here and the grammar, what it's literally saying is the Arrows themselves have intelligence, and it never misses it's target. Before the last century the only interpretation of this was that God was doing it supernaturally, but the text doesn't explicitly define it that way.

Also the words referring to horses and horsemen can simply mean Cavalry, we use the the word Cavalry today to refer to motorized mobile military unites. And Helicopters are called "Air Cav". Also the Hebrew word translated "Chariot" can mean more then just horse drawn carriages, and it is what the modern Israeli army calls their Tanks.

Now I want to make clear I don't support all the places people like to read Nuclear warfare into Bible Prophecy. When Jesus said "lest those days be shortened no flesh should be saved" that's not about technology, that's about the effects of the Bowls of God's Wrath, in which among other things all water on Earth becomes undrinkable. And Zachariah 14 is talking about when God destroys the enemies of Israel.

In Ezekiel 39, it's not to me about any perceived description of the Nukes themselves. This Chapter is the only time, ever, The Bible describes the clean up after a battle. And what's interesting is there is no way to make sense of it without the possibility of nuclear radiation.

Ezekiel 39:24-15"And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search. And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog." People are going to have full-time employment making sure all this stuff is buried. And it seems to be imperative no untrained person actually touch anything if they find something.

What's also interesting is that it's now known that the half life of the Nuclear materiel in Russia's Nukes is 7 years. It fits this Prophecy perfectly.

I love how people try to make it sound like those of us seeing the region of modern Russia are torturing the data. Yes people have been identifying this Prophecy with various Boogeymen throughout history, but by no means every Boogeyman. What's interesting to me  is no one saw Islam in this passage before the Soviet Russia started supplying support to various Muslim enemies of Israel during the Cold War. Because the main three allies mentioned became Islamic regions over a Thousand before, the core of the Prophecy was always understood as being about the North.

The Caspian Gates legend can be traced back at least to the time of Josephus who alludes to it if I recall correctly towards the end of Wars of the Jews. And that Legend is always defined as Alexander making this Gate to keep the "Hordes of Gog and Magog" locked up in the North. Now this legend isn't real, Alexander built no such gates, but both of the structures suspected of inspiring the Legend (or commonly identified with it) are located where everything North of them is modern Russia, between the Black Sea and Caspian Sea.

All of the main "boogeymen" identified with this Prophecy have had some connection to the area of modern Russia. And I could get into it a lot more if I wanted to but I think that's for another study. The Point is, even if the timing of the Prophecy refers only to After the Millennium, that land North of the Black Sea (and the supposed Caspian Gate) is still the only land I see Magog as referring to. It's actually one of the more consistently interpreted Prophecies geographically speaking.

Josephus said Magog was the Scythians.  I know the Greeks used Scythian as a broad term so maybe not all Scythians were of Magog (I suspect both Tubal and Meshech were considered Scythians, and some of Ashkenaz was connected with that region).

The ONLY reason any Scholars try to move what Magog means to Asia Minor/Anatolia/Modern Turkey is because of the desire of Preterists and Bible Skeptics to say Gog refers to Gyges/Gugu a King of Lydia.  Problem is the Lydian King with that name lived before Ezekiel's time not during it or soon after.

Also even if I was open to a Preterist or History written after the fact interpretation of Ezekiel 38-39.  I would still find it idiotic to look for Gog's name in history.  Likewise as a Futurist I do not expect that to be Gog's real personal name, either for a near fulfillment or after The Millennium.  Because it's clear from the text itself Gog is just a nickname used as a pun on the name Magog.  It's not just in English it looks like Magog with the first part removed.  In fact it's more so in Hebrew, without the vowels it is literally just one letter, Mu, that is removed.  So looking for Gog's name in secular history of any time period is a futile effort.

Gyges was king of Sardis/Lydia, which Biblically is Lud a son of Shem not Japheth.

The thing about Prophecies with a double Fulfillment is, core details apply to both events. Certain ones apply only to the Finale Fulfillment, mostly only that one fits the full Epic Scale of the Prophecy. But details can also only strictly apply to the near fulfillment. Those mostly relate to the background of the Prophecy. Like Daniel 8 and the Little Horn, any sense by which The Antichrist can be said to come from the Seleucid Dynasty (or any other Hellenistic Kingdom) is going to be very, very, very indirect.

That is why, I do still think we need to pay attention to modern Russia and it's Alliance with Iran and Shiite Islam. Regardless of how much other evidence points to a post Millennial Fulfillment.

The thing is, lots of Extra-Biblical Prophecies seem to me to be setting the stage for the Antichrist and/or The False Prophet to claim the credit for defeating Gog and Magog. Muslims today associate Dajjal with the West and Gog and Magog with the Communist world (which like many westerners they still associate Russia with). And Rabbinic Judaism sees either Gog or Armilus killing Ben-Joseph to be later defeated by Ben-David.  Chris White thinks it's possible a fake Gog and Magog invasion could be used by The Antichrist.  I think maybe that "fake" invasion could be the near fulfillment.

And I do see in Daniel 11:36-45 a possible Biblical Basis for this. Where the Libyians and Ethiopians are at his steps, and tidings Trouble him out of the North and East (The King of the North who is Syria and possibly parts of Iraq he's already defeated at this point, so this is further North). So for that reason, I think it's important not to minimize the Post-Millennial significance. But I see these tidings as also possibly tying into the Medes/Modern Kurds role in Isaiah 13 and Jeremiah 50-51, and the destruction of Elam (southern Iran) in Jeremiah 49:34-39.  Iran now by porxy controls much of Shiite Iraq.

[Update September 2016: The last Paragraph there involved assumptions I've long since abandoned about Daniel 11.  But my views on the Kurds and Elam/Jeremiah 11 haven't changed much.]