Why does the Tense change in Revelation 11?

I've noticed a few things interesting about Revelation 11.

First, because we often study the different subjects of Revelation in a compartmentalized fashion, we often think in verse 3 the "I will give power unto my two witnesses" is God/Jesus talking, and maybe it is, but that depends on how you interpret other parts of Revelation.

In the first verse of chapter 11 John writes "and the angel stood, saying" and most of the rest of the chapter is John writing what this angel says.  What Angel is it?  Well remember there were no chapter divisions originally, if you read through 10 and 11 uninterrupted, it becomes clear the angel in question is the angel who was the subject of chapter 10.

I also wonder about the "God of the Earth" the Two Witnesses stand before.  Is it a God they're severing or a God they are opposing?  "Stand Before" could be used both ways.  This title is used no where else in the New Testament, but Satan being the Archon of the Kosmos and God of this Aion leaves open the possibility that this title would most likely be used of Satan.  However it is used of YHWH in Genesis 24:3.   Is it a title of this Angel, who's feet are in the Earth and in the Sea?  It is also worth noting that we are before Satan is cast out of Heaven.

This Blog is predicated on my belief that Revelation should be interpreted chronologically.  But since I now notice much of chapter 11 is a character in the narrative describing future events, I am forced to wonder if there is some wiggle room here, and maybe somethings I have long viewed as being before the Last Trumpet sounds could be after.

And that leads me to the question that was the title of this post.  For verses 1-10 this Angel is speaking in the future tense, in the KJV at least.  Then in verse 11 it changes to past tense.  Maybe it's only in translations it seems this way.  I wouldn't be able to know.

It shouldn't be that big a mystery since lots of Prophecies are spoken in the past tense, and I've made a point of that in posts before.  The sudden change in tense is what seemed interesting here, as I was rereading Revelation 11 in the context of the observations I mentioned above.

In verse 14 it's no longer the Angel speaking, it's John setting the stage for the next Woe to happen, which is the Seventh Trumpet.  

The Angel in Chapter 10 also says the stuff he's telling John about pertains to when the Seventh Angel sounds his Trumpet.  So yeah I do now think everything this Angel Talks about is simply another angels on what happens after the Seventh Trumpet sounds.

Objections to Enoch and Elijah being translated

Lex Meyer has raised some I want to address.

This post is not me objecting to his overall doctrine.  Where I agree and disagree with that I already addressed on my Sola Scriptura Blog.

Here I want to point out that he can keep his basic premise without being so contrarian on Enoch and Elijah.  I do NOT believe they've already obtained immortal glorified bodies.  And I agree that Jasher and the Book of Enoch should be rejected.  I believe they are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, which means I believe they are going to physically die in the future.

The first explanation for how this could work is what I already mentioned on this Blog in my main Two Witnesses identities post.  That they traveled through Time as well as Space.  I do not believe they ascended to the Third Heaven, but may have been taken to receive training on another Planet and then sent back, and for them it'll have seemed like only a few years not Thousands.  Because of the theory of Relativity.

The second option also still has them basically the same normal humans we are, but God has supernaturally stalled their ageing process.  We saw during the 40 Year Wandeirng that he did something similar in Deuteronomy 29:5, making it so the shoes and cloths the Israelites wore wouldn't wear out.  This could then also apply to the argument for The Apostle John being a Witness.

As far as his attempts to explain away the accounts of their translations.

His argument is ironically more difficult to buy with Enoch precisely because so much less is said.  With the Elijah narrative his arguments about the real point of what was going on being to get Elisha to go out on his own are quite valid, and without what's said in Malachi and The New Testament, I would be totally willing to accept that.

But with Enoch he just sites all the places where similar terminology is used of death.  That's all true, but context matters.  In the context of Genesis 5 a point is made to define Enoch's fate as not like everyone else, and everyone else is defined as dying.  Genesis 5 is unambiguous about what it is trying to say.

Now what he sites as proof of Elijah not being taken out of the Earth is the letter Jehoram received from him later in 2 Chronicles 21:12.  If Elijah himself were personally present in this story, I would consider it a slam dunk for his argument, but he.s not.

I don't have his book unfortunately, I just listened to the Rob Skiba interviews.  Rob Skiba is into science fiction like Back to The Future.  There is a trope that shows up in some Time Travel stories of a letter being written to be delivered to someone on a very specific date in the distant future.  Well maybe that concept originated right here?

God did a lot of pre-planning with Elijah.  The instructions to anoint Hazael and Jehu were originally given to Elijah in 1 Kings 19, but they were carried out in 2 Kings 9 after the mantle was passed to Elisha.  So I think God had Elijah write this letter way in advance, because He knows the End from the Beginning.  And delivering it at the appointed time was another responsibility passed on to Elisha or someone else.

A second explanation could be that our understanding of the Chronology is wrong, many disagree on the Divided Kingdom Chronology.  But I don't want to get into that here, the above theory works just fine for me.

Now on the subject of Elijah's foretold return.  He sites that John The Baptist preached in the Spirit and Power of Elijah to mean that the Two Witnesses will just do the same.  Problem is in John's Gospel 1:21, John The Baptist states blatantly that he does not qualify as the return of Elijah.  What Jesus says at the Transfiguration about how John could have been that was purely rhetorical.  What Malachi said in his closing verses was NEVER applicable to the First Advent, it is strictly about the Day of Yahuah.

The return of Elijah absolutely needs to be taken literally or else you open the door to not take Jesus promised Return literally.

Witnesses and The Seventh Trumpet

This is copied from a Pre-Trib Website arguing against linking the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11 to the Rapture's Last Trumpet of Yom Teruah.

Yom Teruah is the only festival that no man knows when exactly it will occur. This is due to the fact that it begins on the new moon. The new moon was sanctified when two witnesses see the new moon and attest to it before the Sanhedrin in the Temple. 

This sanctification could happen during either of two days, depending on when the witnesses come. Since no one knew when the witnesses would come, no one knew when the Feast of Trumpets would start. 

On the 30th of each month, the members of the High Court assembled in a courtyard in Jerusalem, where they waited to receive the testimony of two reliable witnesses. They then sanctified the new moon. The new moon is very difficult to see on the first day because it can be seen only about sunset, close to the sun, when the sun is traveling north. So, looking for a very slim faint crescent moon, which is very close to the sun, is a very difficult thing to do. If the moon’s crescent was not seen on the 30th day, the new moon was automatically celebrated on the 31st day. 

 They leave out another important detail however.

After the witnesses are interviewed, to confirm that they are indeed two agreeing witnesses, the High Priest was informed.  Then The High Priest stood at the top of the Temple Mount (because the witnesses brought this news to the bottom of the mount) and tells the two witnesses to "Come up" and they ascend the Temple Mount to the High Priest, and then they sound the Last Trump.

This site's argument against tying this to the Seventh Trumpet was.

We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year.

 It's not an argument, people are just under the assumption Yom Teruah and the 7th Trumpet can't be the same cause we are conditioned to think the Fall Feast begin/end years even though Biblically they mark the middle.  So we're not prepared to see them in the middle of Revelation unless you're a post-tirbber who garbles the chronology.

This site also talks about how Jewish thought also has a First Trumpet, and the First Trumpet is sounded on Pentecost.

Well I've argued on this Blog extensively why I see the Sixth Seal and Revelation 7 as the second fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32.  And the sealing of the 144,000 is the latter rain, the final great outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  So the First Trumpet being sounded right after that fits perfectly.

This site assumes the Great Trumpet and Last Trumpet can't be the same simply because Rabbinic Tradition distinguishes them I guess.

I believe when The Witnesses are Resurrected will be when the sliver of the New Moon of Tishri is seen.  The World will witnesses their rising, they'll preach some more, The Gospel will spread and then God will call them up to Heaven and they will Ascend to Heaven.

Then the people of Jerusalem (who we know from the beginning of chapter 11 are mostly Gentiles at this time) will Believe and Repent and Praise God.  That will be when the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.  Then the Seventh Trumpet is sounded.

Jesus said in Luke 21 that Jerusalem will be "Trodden under foot of the Gentiles till the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled".  And that is when he will return.

Could the second Witness be John?

I've argued before for the second witness being Enoch.  And I still feel strongly convinced by all those arguments.  But I've become aware of a compelling argument being made that the other Witness is John, the Beloved Disciple to whom the Revelation was given, himself.

At the end of Revelation 10 John is told.  "Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."  Maybe this just means him preaching the message of Revelation to the world after he finished it.  But early Church tradition doesn't record such an epic final ministry, though Irenaeus says he lived into the reign of Trajan.  The compelling thing is, it's the very next chapter that discuses the Two Witnesses.

Of all the verses Preterists misuse to make it sound like the New Testament says Jesus' Second Coming must happen in the lifetime of his ministry.  Matthew 16:28 (and it's parallels in the other synoptics) is the strongest.

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

 I have for awhile favored the argument of Chuck Missler and others that this refers to the Transfiguration in the next chapter.  Which was a glimpse of the Kingdom.  But I've read recently that the Greek word Tis translated "Some" here can also me "a certain one".

At the end of John's Gospel.  Jesus says concerning the Beloved Disciple who is the book's author.

"If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."

We are told that many interpreted this to mean he wouldn't die.  But then we are told that was incorrect, "yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

The correction is often taken as assuring us it doesn't give John any unusual lifespan, or anything else like that, but that this was simply fulfilled in a way by him having the vision that is The Book of Revelation.  But the correction was only about thinking John wouldn't die, The Two Witnesses will die.

John is traditionally believed to have not died a Martyr, a few sources all drawing on Papias who's original work we don't have say he was Martyred during the reign of Domitian.  But our oldest quoter of Papias, Irenaeus, who has supposedly an indirect connection to John via Polycarp, was unaware of this and says John lived into the reign of Trajan.  Zahn T argued that the reference in Papias is actually to John The Baptist.

A work attributed to Hippolytus of Rome called "On the Apostles and Disciples" records certain traditions I don't believe, mainly Peter dying in Rome, and it follows Catholic dogma of confusing certain of the 12 with the Brothers of Jesus.  But what it says about John is interesting.

"John, again, in Asia, was banished by Domitian the king to the isle of Patmos, in which also he wrote his Gospel and saw the apocalyptic vision; and in Trajan's time he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found."

Matthew 10:35 and 20:20 have been interpreted as implying both sons of Zebedee would die Martyrs.  James is the only one of the 12 who's death is recorded in the History of the New Testament, in Acts 12.  But if John is one of the Two Witnesses then his is recorded in Prophecy.

Thematically I think it would fit well with my argument for The False Prophet being Judas Iscariot.  Having a disciple on each side relevant to the End Times.

How does this effect Rapture timing disputes?  Any argument that the Two Witnesses ministry can't be during the Church Age would be destroyed by this, since John is absolutely part of The Church.  It would give more credence to an argument that the Rapture of the Witnesses is part of the Rapture of The Church if one of them is one of the 12.  And the statement from John 21 would require their death to be very near when the Rapture happens.

Also, read Acts 3 and 4 carefully.  Peter and John sort of serve as a type of the Witnesses there.  Just as Elijah did during his first ministry.

Thing is, there are still arguments I made for Enoch that I feel are pretty difficult to refute.  And this would require that the early traditions about John's death are false, which they could be, but I'm forced to wonder why they would pop up?  But that he's traditionally the only of the 12 not Martyred is interesting.

The Identities of The Two Witnesses

Elijah is obvious

Rarely some will even question Elijah's status (claiming they're not two literal individuals, but symbolic), saying that to Christians the promise of Elijah's return (Malachi 4:5&6) was fulfilled by John The Baptist. But this is an over simplification of what The New Testament says about the connection between John and Elijah (who due to Greek transliteration tends to be called Elias in the KJV of the NT).

Matthew 11:14 says "if ye will receive it" they didn't however, John was rejected just as Jesus was. Accounts of the Transfiguration likewise have a lot of quotes that can be taken out of context to support this doctrine, but that discussion is particularly mystical in nature. John like Elisha preached with the "Spirit and Power" of Elijah, but that's a separate thing from his literal return. In a sense I believe NT Church Age believers also have the "Spirit and Power" of Elijah, or at least we should if we're not ignoring the Gifts of the Spirit.

In John 1:21 John clearly states that he is not Elijah.  Some people just write off this clear statement preferring to build doctrine on the Transfiguration.  Scripture cannot contradict, so clearly one statement is not to be taken at face value.  And it's the Transfiguration quote, not John, that contains a qualifying statement.

That the Prophecy that begins Malachi 3 (and Isaiah 40:3) is cited in the NT as being about John The Baptist is sometimes seen as backing John The Baptist being the return of Elijah.  Nothing however proves those should be viewed as the same thing.  They just assume that last part of Malachi was merely elaborating on Malachi 3:1, but I see no reason to believe that.

John could be viewed as a near fulfillment, like Solomon was of Nathan's Prophecy, but the true ultimate fulfillment is still yet future.

Other circumstantial reasons to view Elijah as a witness will happen to come up as I discus the identity of the other one. So addressing the John issue is all I need to do for now.

Not Moses

So many scholars I respect, like Chuck Missler, who are right on so many other basic Eschatological issues still insist on this mistaken view that the other Witness is Moses. I'm going refute those arguments.  The main three are.

1. "The plagues parallel Elijah and Moses". Miracles are truly performed by God, Elijah and Moses happened to be affiliated with some of the most basic and standard stuff. Truth is however it's primarily Elijah's ministry their description parallels, with stopping the rain for 3 and a half years and consuming their persecutors with fire. The only specific thing affiliated with Moses is the turning water to blood. But by this point in Revelation that's already no longer unique to Moses, we saw it in the trumpet judgments twice and will again twice during the bowl judgments.

2. "It was Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration". The Transfiguration follows directly when Jesus said to the Twelve "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Matthew 16:28. My response to how that verse is used by Preterists and Amillennials (and Bible skeptics who call Jesus a failed Prophet) is that it's referring to the Transfiguration. Jesus and his two visitors are transfigured into their post Resurrection states. I believe there is a deliberate bending of Space-Time here, and that the Elijah with Jesus here has already experienced the events of Revelation 11.

3. "Moses and Elijah represent The Law and The Prophets". For starters the term "The Law and The Prophets" isn't used in Revelation 11. Also "The Prophets" in that sense refers to the Prophetic books of The Bible, Elijah didn't write any of those. But at any rate, Enoch is from The Torah.

4. "Moses is mentioned right by Elijah in Malachi's Prophecy". This should be an argument against frankly, Malachi was just on the subject of Moses and yet he only directly refers to Elijah returning. Clearly the intent was that Elijah's return would make people remember the Law of Moses, I believe he'll be preaching that the Law was fulfilled by Jesus.

Those are the typical core three arguments, but I want to address now two I've heard chiefly from Chuck Missler.

First Chuck claims that the Prophecy of the coming "Prophet like unto Moses" from Deuteronomy 18 really implies a second coming of Moses but that's simply lost in translation, but my own study of the Hebrew text lends it no support. At any rate he's ignoring Acts 3:22 and 26:22 which define this as a Prophecy of Jesus.

He also cites Jude verse 9

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Suggesting the reason defending Moses's body from Satan was so important was because God still has a future plan for him.

I believe the reason was to be a witness to the Resurrection. Matthew 27:52&53 says

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

As I've said elsewhere, this can't be another temporary Resurrection like Lazarus, that wasn't a special sign anymore. This is referring to the first phase of The First Resurrection. We know where Moses was buried, Mt. Nebo isn't as controversial an identity as Sinai. Lots of excavations go on there, but the body of Moses hasn't been found. I believe Moses certainly had to be among those Resurrected soon after Jesus, which means he's not capable of dying anymore, which The Witnesses will have to do. 

Some have even argued that what Jude is describing here is when Moses Resurrection happened.  Daniel 12 arguably links Michael to the Resurrection (I think Daniel 12 has it's near fulfillment in the Resurrection that happened with Jesus Resurrection, and finale fulfillment in The Rapture) and if you hold a Midway Point Rapture view like I do, the connection between the Seventh Trumpet and Revelation 12 could back that up.

People then go on and bring in all kinds of Extra-Biblical post Second Temple Rabbinic Jewish traditions to back them up, from the Mishna, Talmud and Kabbalistic ideas, from men like Rashi.

 I'm a Christian who considers the Talmud a useful source of Historical information, but Rabbinic Judaism is still just as much a false religion as Catholicism and their traditions. These same kinds of Esoteric Jewish speculations may consider the idea of a returning Moses independent of Revelation 11, but you'll also find teachings there that the Messiah isn't a Son of David but David himself Resurrected, or Solomon.

The death nail however is that Moses was punished for his Sin of Unbelief by not being allowed to enter the Promised Land.  The Witnesses will be in the promised land.  And that was a penalty God will not repent of, Moses will not see The Promised Land.

Why I view the other as Enoch.

I believe in the symmetry of The Bible. Exactly two people are recorded as being taken out of the Earth alive without ever dying during the B.C. period. One we are told specifically will come back. Then Revelation 11 speaks of Two Witnesses who operate like Old Testament Prophets, and they definitely parallel the one confirmed to come back. And both will die and be resurrected in circumstances distinct from most of humanity. It seems to me like 1+1=2.

Chuck Missler argues against Enoch by saying "He's not Jewish". He's one of those Pre-Tribbers who view the entire Tribulation as being uniquely focused on Israel, so clearly the other can't be a Gentile, not even a pre-Abramanic gentile. But to me the Gentiles are still relevant during this period, the whole world is said to hate them, not just Jews offended by their Jewish message. I could add that Chuck also likes to say that the Woman of Revelation 12 is "Israel, in the sense that she starts with Eve" The Seed of The Woman, Enoch is part of that sense clearly, being in the Genealogy of Jesus from Luke 3.

There were Prophets in Pre-Church times who had missions to the Gentiles, Jonah and Nahum for example. But also Daniel's message was half for Israel and half for The World. 2-7, Aramaic Daniel, is a message for The Gentile World. Elijah himself, as well as Elisha his successor had missions involving Gentiles, including a command to Anoint a King of Aram. Prophets need not physically travel to Nineveh to preach to them anymore, television and the internet will make sure their message travels.

Here is what he's overlooked though. The Two Olive Trees imagery of Revelation 11 in addition to drawing on Zachariah 4 is also further explained by Romans 11:17-24, the Prophecy of Israel's restoration. Where it becomes clear one represents Israel and the Other the believing Gentiles. This is often used by those who want to allegorieze the Witnesses, that allegorical context is only heretical when it throws out the literal fulfillment. We know Romans 11 should be understood with this subject in mind because Elijah was refereed to at the start.

But what about the assumption that in Zachariah they represent Zerubbabel and Jeshua? Both of them were Jews and not Gentiles? Technically true but Zerubbabel did have a Gentile name, unlike Enoch who coming from Pre-Babel times had a Hebrew name like all original Gentiles. But either way the Doctrine of the Two Witnesses shouldn't be based on the types definitively. For one thing, The Witnesses clearly hold the office of Prophet, while Zeurbbabel was the leader of Civil Government and Jeshua was the High Priest.

Hebrews 9:27 is often cited by Enoch supporters, though I hardly view my position as dependent upon it. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". The response to that however is that there are exceptions to this chiefly in those who will be Raptured.  Because whether your Pre, Mid or Post Tirb, 1 Thessalonians 4 clearly describes people who will be spared "dying" in the normal way when Jesus returns to gather his people.

The Church is Resurrected at the Rapture "The dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain", those alive still when it happens will be Resurrected without dying. No one was truly Resurrected before Jesus in 30 A.D. So Enoch couldn't have been Resurrected, he still needs to be.

People against it being Enoch like to say Enoch's being taken was a type of The Rapture as if that inherently conflicts with the idea of him coming back.  But Elijah's can be viewed as a type of The Rapture too, even better really since his story has a narrative, linked to other End Times proto-types.  Those are only a type because they weren't Resurrected.  But The Two Witnesses will be Resurrected and Raptured.  And as a Mid-Tirbber I view theirs and ours as linked, maybe even simultaneous.  So to me their serving at a foreshadowing of The Rapture event in The Law and The Prophets only fits them being The Witnesses even better.

Those against using Hebrew 9:27 to support Enoch will say it's intent is only about condemning reincarnation.  Well the irony there is I've seen supporters of reincarnation mocking the idea of using that verse against reincarnation because the same author reminds us Enoch was taken out of the Earth alive.

John 3:13 is often cited by skeptics of The Bible as a contradiction, for contradicting the accounts of both Elijah and Enoch by saying. "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." The answer is that Elijah and Enoch were taken out of The Earth, but did not go all the way to the "Third Heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2–4). But that answer leaves Enoch stranded if only Elijah comes back.

Given what we now know about the nature of Time thanks to Albert Einstein, about how if you travel past the speed of light you're also traveling through Time itself.  What if Enoch and Elijah were taken to an angelically inhabited planet orbiting a distant Star?  Both could have arrived at the same time despite being taken from Earth thousands of years apart simply by giving their "Chariots" different speed settings. There they were briefed on what they needed to do.  I suspect they arrived after 100 A.D. so they could be given a complete New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures to study. Then left to Space-Time Travel again and will return when the 70th Week starts, but for them it'll have only been like a few years tops.

Next I will return to a specific passage alluded to in Revelation 11, Zechariah 4. The two Olive Tress on each side of the Menorah, which represent two Anointed Ones who stand before YHWH. Standard non NT influenced interpretation is that they refer to Zeurbbable and Jeshua, leaders of the first wave of Israelites returning from the exile. Of course that is true, in one sense they do foreshadow The Witnesses. But there is more to it. One of the layers of symbolism of the Seven Candlesticks of The Menorah to me is the Seven Angels who stand before the Throne of YHWH. So what we have here is literally two men who are currently among the Angels.

What's interesting is this passage is also often affiliated by Jews with Hanukkah and read during that festival. They see the two Olive Trees next to the Menorah as foreshadowing the nine candlestick Hanukkah Menorah.  Hanukkah is linked to the history of Antiochus Epiphanes and his Abomination of Desolation, a precursor of The Man of Sin. So it does also have End Times significance. 

It's not noticed by us in English because of differences in transliteration, but in Hebrew the first syllable of Hanukkah is the name of Enoch. The Holy Spirit loves making puns like that, so I don't think it's a coincidence.

I feel I should add, even though it's ultimately irrelevant to me, that them being Enoch and Elijah was virtually the unanimous opinion of early Christianity. Early Church fathers, such as Tertullian, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus of Rome state this view, the last two I know take the correct Futurist views on most issues of Eschatology and so are my favorites to read on that subject. The account of Christ's descent into Hades from the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus features both of them identifying themselves as The Two Witnesses. The Pseudo-Prophecy from the late 4th Century attributed to the Tiburtine Sibyl also identifies them as Enoch and Elijah. Also Ephraim the Syrian, and other 7th Century AD apocalypses.  This Moses popularity popped up much latter.

One final thought that is completely conjectural.

The Moses camp can build a strong circumstantial case using thematic parallels, but those aren't something to build doctrine one.  It being Enoch is what makes the full Biblical picture of history fit together.

I've thought to myself recently.  "What if there is a way to reconcile the circumstantial arguments with the solid reasons for seeing it as being Enoch.  What if to begin with Moses was to Enoch as John The Baptist was to Elijah?  A type fulfillment of his promised return but not the literal final fulfillment."

We have no real reason to build such a doctrine on that.  But I can think of one thing that might give it minute support.  The Prophecy Jude attributes to Enoch says "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints".  This verse happens to have a poetic parallel to Deuteronomy 33:2 "he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them."  That could lend credence to suggesting that if we knew more about what Enoch prophesied that maybe the days of Moses could be viewed as its near fulfillment, but the End Times as the final far fulfillment.

This theory on how to tie everything together might suggest that the "Elijah" at the Transfiguration was really John The Baptist.  Considering the Transfiguration account is the only place that seems to explicitly identify John with the fulfillment of Elijah's return, that could make sense.

The Mission of The Two Witnesses

I shall leave the issue their identities to a future post.

First and foremost, to me their clearly in the first half of The Week. Their 3 and a Half year ministry is linked to The Temple during a period when the "outer court" is given to the Gentiles.

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

During the second half, after the Abomination of Desolation occurs and the Jews flee to Edom the entire Temple will be under Gentile control.

Those who think The Antichrist will be a Jewish Messianic claimant may insist even after the Abomination. But the literal meaning of Gentile isn't even the point here, it ties to Luke and Paul's talk of "The Times of The Gentiles" which ends at the Rapture, so if your Mid-Trib this period must be the first half of the 70th Week.

But more importantly, the key thing to me is God approves of what's going on in The Temple here, and disapproves of the Outer Court (where I believe the Al-Agsa Mosque and the Dome of The Rock will still be standing). Many Christians love to take from all Paul's talk in Hebrews about the Sacrificial system being fulfilled in Yeshua a little to far and assume it's outright a Sin now to engage in The Temple system.   But in Acts it's pointed out how Paul took part in The Temple system the last time he came to Jerusalem, and the Jerusalem Church lead by James and the other half brothers of Jesus took part in it also. And because of my understanding of the 70 weeks that I explain in the 30 A.D. dissertation I think the Third Temple will at first have more divine approval then the Second Temple did during that 40 year period.

The restoration of the Mosaic/Solominic Temple System will naturally require a person or persons to hold the office of The Prophet. But like the true Prophets of Ancient Israel their message won't be popular while the False Prophets will be.

The wording of the last verse of Daniel 9 is difficult, but because it is probably referring to a Wing of the Temple some insist that the Antichrist's actual Image will be in this Outter court. Daniel 9 doesn't say "Abomination of Desolation", I believe it's linked but still has something different in mind. I think it could mean in the Outer Court is the place where the Beast's false resurrection happens, and then from there he will march towards the Holy Place, this fits well with my understanding of Daniel 11:45. Either way once the Abomination happens the Temple itself is desecrated and the offerings aren't being made. I'm sorry but there is no way this fit the Second Half.

Another reason is Elijah's return must be BEFORE the great and terrible day of The LORD.

This also means The Temple is already built when their ministry begins, so Perry Stone and others insistence that they will lead to it's rebuilding is false. I believe they'll be be preaching what Paul teaches in Hebrews, that the Temple sacrifices are no longer needed because Jesus paid the price for all Sin. And so they'll be hated like Stephen was in Acts 6:13

"And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law"

The witnesses are false because I'm sure they misrepresented what Stephen said just as the false witnesses against Jesus did, but to me this still hints at why Stephen's enemies were bothered by his preaching. So likewise they will think the Witnesses are against The Temple just like those Jews thought Stephen was.

Timing of their Death and Resurrection.

I believe the Beast's resurrection and when he performs the Abomination of Desolation will probably be the same day.  And same with the killing of The Witnesses.  The only way their execution could be sooner is if it's the Second beast rather then the first who kills them.

If their blamed for the execution of The Antichrist that could fit certain false prophecies (with The False Prophet pretending to be Jesus playing the Messiah Ben-David role of Rabbinic Jewish Eschatology, or Isa of Islamic.  And The Antichrist as Messiah Ben-David of the Mahdi).  And I do believe both Beast "ascend out of the Bottomless Pit".  Since I view Revelation 19 saying their cast alive into the Lake of Fire as meaning both are early partakers of the Second resurrection.  I will make posts in The Future on The False Prophet.

But I also feel it's probable that this time period people are celebrating the deaths of the Witnesses is what Paul meant by "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them" when discussing more abut the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 5.

The Witnesses and The Antichrist

You may be thinking if you follow this blog regularly. "You have said elsewhere that we won't know for certain who The Antichrist is during the first half.   And that there may be Decoy Antichrists.  How can that be the case if The Witnesses a active then?"  I'll present a few potential answers, some conflict with each but other will overlap.

1.  I don't think their job will be to clarify every disputed issue of Bible interpretation.  They will be preaching The Gospel, that Jesus was The Messiah, and that God's Wrath is coming.

At least some of those decoy Antichrists I do think are personages in Bible Prophecy, or linked to Bible Prophecies.  And sometimes confused with The Antichrist.  So anytime the Witnesses confirm Bible Prophecy has been fulfilled it could, it could only reinforce certain incorrect conclusions to those who are listening to them.

2. We know they'll be unpopular, and I'm not so certain most Christians will believe them anymore then The World.  Some are devoted to a Second Half of the final Week ministry view and may convince themselves these false just because the timing didn't suit their preconceived notions.

3. There could very well be counterfeit witnesses leading people to false conclusions.  I for one will certainly evaluate what they say against Scripture before deciding to follow any.

4. This is the most controversial.  But I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the personage who turns out to be The Antichrist might be someone they supported at first.  I've said elsewhere that he may claim (or be claimed by his supporters) to be messiah Ben-Joseph.  If you look at some of the Biblical figures who can serve as type of The Antichrist that were also Northern Kingdom leaders/rulers, and thus might lend themselves to that.

Jeroboam was originally anointed by a legit Prophet of God, but then he turned away.  Jehu too was anointed on God's orders and seemed good at first, but he still followed after the Sins of Jeroboam.  Even Saul could fit being Anointed by Samuel.  Solomon a Davidic King, but he too in-spite of being anointed by Nathan became a type of the Antichrist, being linked to the number 666.  Because of my views on Eternal Security I have no doubt that Saul and Solomon are among the saved in-spite the ways they might narratively resemble The Antichrist in the latter parts of their reigns.

I certainly do not think The Antichrist will be born a Demon Seed like in The Omen and many other works of fiction about him.  So if he hasn't done anything majorly Evil yet at 3 years into the 70th Week.  I don't think it would be right for The Witnesses to condemn him for what he hasn't done yet.

Ephraem the Syrian

I decided I should address the matter of Ephraem the Syrian.  A work attributed to the 4th Century Ephraem the Syrian is popularly cited by Pre-Tirbbers in response to the accusation from Post-Tribbers (and non Futurists) that the idea of The Rapture as a separate event from the Second Coming of Revelation 19 is purely the invention of John Nelson Darby in the 19th Century.

To me it is ultimately absolutely irrelevant how much Extra-Biblical support a position has. 

I believe new insights into Scripture can happen.  It wasn't clear to The Jews (and still isn't) that The Messiah has two Advents.

The cited Ephraem text is controversial.  There is more then one Translation based on different manuscripts and they don't agree with each other.  And it was probably not actually written by Ephraem but is rather a Seventh Century work attributed to him.

The texts commonly cited in Rapture disputes is the Rhoades translation of a Latin manuscript.

On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World A Sermon by Pseudo-Ephraem and Isidor of Sevilla (Caspari's title of the sermon is: Eine Ephraem Syrus und Isidor von Sevilla beigelegte Predigt über die letzten Zeiten, den Antichrist und das Ende der welt.)

The English translation of the Latin text in C.P. Caspari's Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelater (Christiania, 1890, pp. 208-20) was provided by Cameron Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.

Section I Dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. We have already told you that the end of the world is near, the consummation remains. Has not faith withered away among mankind? How many foolish things are seen among youths, how many crimes among prelates, how many lies among priests, how many perjuries among deacons! There are evil deeds among the ministers, adulteries in the aged, wantonness in the youths—in mature women false faces, in virgins dangerous traces! In the midst of all this there are the wars with the Persians, and we see struggles with diverse nations threatening and "kingdom rising against kingdom." When the Roman empire begins to be consumed by the sword, the coming of the Evil One is at hand. It is necessary that the world come to an end at the completion of the Roman empire. In those days two brothers will come to the Roman empire who will rule with one mind; but because one will surpass the other, there will be a schism between them. And so the Adversary will be loosed and will stir up hatred between the Persian and Roman empires. In those days many will rise up against Rome; the Jewish people will be her adversaries. There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come.

Section II We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!

Section III When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere, fear in the homes, panic in the cities, quaking in the thoroughfares, suspicions in the male, anxiety in the streets. In the desert people become senseless, spirits melt in the cities. A friend will not be grieved over a friend, neither a brother for a brother, nor parents for their children, nor a faithful servant for his master, but one inevitability shall overwhelm them all; neither is anyone able to be recovered in that time, who has not been made completely aware of the coming danger, but all people, who have been constricted by fear, are consumed because of the overhanging evils.

Section IV Whenever therefore the earth is agitated by the nations, people will hide themselves from the wars in the mountains and rocks, by caves and caverns of the earth, by graves and memorials of the dead, and there, as they waste away gradually by fear, they draw breath, because there is not any place at all to flee, but there will be concession and intolerable pressure. And those who are in the east will flee to the west, and moreover, those who are in the west shall flee to the east, and there is not a safer place anywhere, because the world shall be overwhelmed by worthless nations, whose aspect appears to be of wild animals more than that of men. Because those very much horrible nations, most profane and most defiled, who do not spare lives, and shall destroy the living from the dead, shall consume the dead, they eat dead flesh, they drink the blood of beasts, they pollute the world, contaminate all things, and the one who is able to resist them is not there. In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them.

Section V Whenever the days of the times of those nations have been fulfilled, after they have destroyed the earth, it shall rest; and now the kingdom of the Romans is removed from everyday life, and the empire of the Christians is handed down by God and Peter; and then the consummation comes, when the kingdom of the Romans begins to be fulfilled, and all dominions and powers have been fulfilled. Then that worthless and abominable dragon shall appear, he, whom Moses named in Deuteronomy, saying:-Dan is a young lion, reclining and leaping from Basan. Because he reclines in order that he may seize and destroy and slay. Indeed (he is) a young whelp of a lion not as the lion of the tribe of Judah, but roaring because of his wrath, that he may devour. "And he leaps out from Basan." "Basan" certainly is interpreted "confusion." He shall rise up from the confusion of his iniquity. The one who gathers together to himself a partridge the children of confusion, also shall call them, whom he has not brought forth, just as Jeremiah the prophet says. Also in the last day they shall relinquish him just as confused.
Section VI When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from an unclean or most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit. But that abominable corrupter, more of spirits than of bodies, while a youth, the crafty dragon appears under the appearance of righteousness, before he takes the kingdom. Because he will be craftily gentle to all people, not receiving gifts, not placed before another person, loving to all people, quiet to everyone, not desiring gifts, appearing friendly among close friends, so that men may bless him, saying;-he is a just man, not knowing that a wolf lies concealed under the appearance of a lamb, and that a greedy man is inside under the skin of a sheep.

Section VII But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire, and, just as it is said in the Psalm:-They have been made for the undertaking for the sons of Loth, the Moabites and the Ammanites shall meet him first as their king. Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations, since he is carnal and filthy and mixed with worthless spirit and flesh. Then that eloquence shall be fulfilled of Daniel the prophet:-And he shall not know the God of their fathers, and he shall not know the desires of women. Because the very wicked serpent shall direct every worship to himself. Because he shall put forth an edict so that people may be circumcised according to the rite of the old law. Then the Jews shall congratulate him, because he gave them again the practice of the first covenant; then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months, just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which become three and a half years, 1,260 days.

Section VIII In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth, and the clouds shall cease to pass through the air, and the stars shall be seen with difficulty in the sky because of the excessive dryness, which happens in the time of the very fierce dragon. Because all great rivers and very powerful fountains that overflow with themselves shall be dried up, torrents shall dry up their water-courses because of the intolerable age, and there will be a great tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth, and there will be famine and an insufferable thirst. And children shall waste away in the bosom of their mothers, and wives upon the knees of their husbands, by not having victuals to eat. Because there will be in those days lack of bread and water, and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or on the hand. Then gold and silver and precious clothing or precious stones shall lie along the streets, and also even every type of pearls along the thoroughfares and streets of the cities, but there is not one who may extend the hand and take or desire them, but they consider all things as good as nothing because of the extreme lack and famine of bread, because the earth is not protected by the rains of heaven, and there will be neither dew nor moisture of the air upon the earth. But those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent, bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs.

Section IX Then, when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord; and indeed the unjust, so that they may be damned forever with their author the Devil, and, as God beholds the human race in danger and being tossed about by the breath of the horrible dragon, he sends to them consolatory proclamation by his attendants, the prophets Enoch and Elijah, who, while not yet tasting death, are the servants for the heralding of the second coming of Christ, and in order to accuse the enemy. And when those just ones have appeared, they confuse indeed the antagonistic serpent with his cleverness and they call back the faithful witnesses to God, in order to (free them) from his seduction ...

Section X And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever.

It's a key part of Section II that is a Rapture Witness.  "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins".  It's usually Pre-Tribbers bringing this up.  So as a form of Mid-Tribber I feel the need to point out that they don't know if whoever wrote this is defining "the tribulation" as Pre-Tribbers do.

It's clear that I have eschatological differences with this Author regardless of if they have a basically similar Rapture view to myself.  He agrees with me on The Witnesses being Enoch and Elijah, but probably not on the timing of their ministry it seems.

A problem for Pre-Tribbers thinking this agrees with them is the last section.  Clearly Ephraem views the return of Christ described in 1 Thessalonians 4 as being after The Resurrection of The Witnesses and the Abomination of Desolation.  He also ignores the Millennium strangely.

The accusation exists that the one line that helps Pre-Trib and Dispensaitonalism was in fact deliberately added or mistranslated by the translator.

The other Translation is not usually cited in The Rapture debate.  Is clearly influenced by the Seventh Pseudo-Methodius apocalypse.  And Pretends to foretell the rise of Islam.

SERMON OF PSEUDO-EPHREM ON THE END OF THE WORLD
Translated from the text in Edmund Beck, ed., Des heiligen Ephraem des Syrers Sermones III (CSCO 320; Louvain: Secrétariat du Corpus SCO, 1972), 60-71; see also 79-94 for Beck’s translation. The text is based on two manuscripts: (1) Codex Vaticanus Sir. 566, and (2) Codex Dublinensis (Trinity College) B 5.19. Editio princeps: Thomas Josephus Lamy, ed., Sancti Ephraem Syri Hymni et Sermones (4 vols.; Mechliniae: H. Dessain, 1882-1902), 3:187-212.

A discourse (memra) of the holy saint Ephrem, the Syrian teacher, concerning the end, (final) consummation, judgment, and punishment; on the people of Gog and Magog; and about the Antichrist. O Son who by His grace humbled Himself And who was pleased to make Himself a human being; Who willingly experienced death At the top of the wood(en cross) on Golgotha: Grant me, my Lord, (the ability) to speak about The struggles which will take place in the created order; For peoples will fall upon each other And nations will destroy one another, Evil will fortify itself on the earth And iniquity will increase throughout creation. Righteous rulers will perish And lawless ones will arise on the earth. Then a judgment will arise, And a weighing on the scale for those humans: The side (containing) the wicked will sink down; And that for the elect will rise up. Then spiritual entities will go forth And destroy the ends of the created order. It will happen, my brethren, just as it is written: A plague in a number of places, And a famine will occur in the created order; Terrible struggles and conflicts. Dust will be saturated with blood; The created order will be polluted from iniquity. Regions will be ravaged, And cities will be consumed by Sheol; Nation will rise up against nation And kingdom against kingdom. Lawlessness will be sovereign on earth And the defiled will pursue after the saints. People will openly apostatize And augment the left side; The righteous ones will suffer indignities From those who belong to the side of the sinners. It is due to this, my beloved ones That the final age has arrived. Lo, we have observed the signs, Just as Christ inscribed for us: Rulers will arise, one against another; There will be suffering on earth; Nations will contend with nations And armies will fall upon one another. When the Nile, the river of Egypt, Overflows (and) floods part of the land, Certain regions will prepare themselves Against the country of the Romans. Nations will contend with nations, And a kingdom with a kingdom. They will depart, moving from one land to another; Those Romans who are put to flight. And the Assyrians will gain authority Over the region of the Romans. The fruit of their loins they will subjugate And they will also ravish their women; They will be sowing and also reaping They will plant fruits in the ground; They will acquire vast riches And hoard treasures underground. But just as the Nile, the river of Egypt Recedes again from what it flooded; So too will Assyria recede Back to their own country. For the Romans once again will be found In their ancestral land (i.e., the Assyrians’). Then evil will increase on the earth And the land will be defiled with fornication. The cry of the persecuted and the wretched Will rise up to heaven. Then a judgment will arise To cast them out of the land. The holy covenant will complain; A cry will rise up to heaven. A people will emerge from the wilderness, The progeny of Hagar, the handmaid of Sarah; Who hold fast to the covenant with Abraham, The husband of Sarah and Hagar. Set in motion, he (Ishmael) comes in the name of the ram, The herald of the Son of Destruction. A sign will appear in the heavens, The one our Lord spoke of in His gospel: Luminaries will shine among the stars And the light of His face will gleam. Rulers will quake and tremble; The forces arrayed by them will fall. The peoples of the earth will be terrified When they behold the sign set in the heavens. They will prepare for battle and come together, All peoples and nationalities. They will wage war there And the ground will be drenched with blood. The nations will suffer defeat there, A marauding nation will prevail. The marauders will fly over the landscape, Across plains and over the peaks of mountains. They will take women and children as captives, Also men both elderly and young. The best of the males will be destroyed; The most desirable women will be removed. With strong spears and lances They will impale elderly men. They will separate a son from his father, A daughter from the side of her mother; They will separate a brother from his brethren, A sister from the side of her sisters. They will slay the bridegroom in his bedroom And expel the bride from her bridal chamber. They will take a wife away from her husband, And slaughter her as if she were a sheep; They will cast an infant away from its mother And drive the mother into captivity. The child will scream out on the ground: Its mother hears, but what can she do? For it will be trampled by the hooves Of horses, camels, and infantry! She (tries to) turn toward it, (but) they will not allow her; The child remains within the wild (?). They separate children from their mother As the soul (is separated) from the body. She watches while they divide them up, Her beloved ones (taken from) the embrace of her bosom; Two of her children to two (different) masters, Her own self to still another master; She has been allocated, and her children with her; For they are now slaves to robbers. Her children cry out with laments, Their eyes burning with tears; She turns toward her beloved ones, The milk flowing forth from her breast: ‘Farewell, my beloved ones! May God go with you! The one who accompanied Joseph In (his) servitude among foreigners: May He accompany you, my children Into the captivity where you are going!’ ‘Farewell, our mother! May God go with you! The one who accompanied Sarah Into the palace of Abimelech the Gadarite: May He accompany your own self Until the Day of Resurrection!’ The son will stand and watch while his father Is sold into slavery. The eyes of both of them will burn with tears While they groan, one in front of the other. A brother will watch while his brother Is killed and cast down on the ground, Whereas he they drive off into captivity In order to serve among foreigners as a slave. They even put to death mothers Who are holding their children to their breasts. Bitter is the sound of the infants Who are groaning to satisfy their desire (for milk). They will prepare roads in the mountains, Highways in the middle of the plains; They will maraud until the very ends of the created order. They will establish rule over the urban centers. The provinces will suffer destruction, And they will multiply corpses on the earth. All peoples will be brought low Before the marauder nation. And once the peoples have endured much on earth And hope that now peace has arrived, They (the Ishmaelites) start exacting tribute And everyone will be fearful of them. Lawlessness will intensify on the earth And even obscure the clouds; Wickedness will enclose the created order And waft up like smoke to the heavens. Then since wickedness will be rampant upon the earth, The Lord’s wrath will then stir up Kings and mighty armies. For when He seeks to expunge it from earth, He sends out humans against humans To annihilate one another. Truly at that time He will summon The kings and mighty armies Who are behind those gates Which Alexander fashioned. Many rulers and peoples Remain behind the gates. They look toward heaven And call on the name of God, That the Lord send His sign From within His heaven of glory And the Divine Voice Summon them who are by those gates; So that they suddenly break down and collapse At the command of the Divinity. Numerous armies issue forth, As many as the stars which cannot be counted. As multitudinous as the sand by the sea, And exceeding (the number of) the stars in the sky. A full span was consumed From the lower crossbar; And from the upper crossbar Another full span was consumed On account of the great quantity of their sharp spears With which they lacerated it. They issued forth, Moving, spilling forth from there; Kings and large armies And every people and language group Emerging from (behind) those gates. Gog and Magog and Nūl and Agag, Kings and mighty armies! Togarmah and Ashkenaz and Daypar, Pūìayē with Lūbayē. Amzartayē and Garmēdō‘, ¬alab with helmet-covered heads, Azmurtayē and Kūshayē, Hunayē and Parzayē, Diqlayē and Tūbalayē, Mūshkayē with Kūshayē. Allied to and coming with them Were both the Medes and the Persians, Armenians and Turks And NamrūÐayē and MūshÐayē; The descendants of Ke’wan and Serug; The progeny of Yaqìan and the MaÐūnayē; Numerous armies and nations Whose number cannot be calculated. They will burst forth and flood the earth, Shaking the walls of the created order. A dust cloud will rise up over the earth, Obscuring the sun above And covering creation With clouds and dark fogs, In accordance with what Ezekiel prophesied, The son of Buzi in his prophecy. For when the Huns come forth To wage war and to do battle, They will take hold of pregnant women And heap fire on top of them; They will come closer and mutter incantations over them, While roasting their children inside them! Splitting them open, they extract their fetuses When they are finished cooking inside of them. They draw near: then place them in basins, And pour water over them And dissolve their corpses there In those enchanted waters. They immediately take their swords And their bows with their spears And dip them in those waters For their arrows and their weapons. Every weapon to which are applied Those magical potions Appears as if there are hundreds, even thousands Of cavalrymen who wield them. Moreover those hundreds of horsemen Who set out (and) traverse the whole of the earth Appear as if they are accompanied By six thousand myriads. If one of them should fall off during battle While engaging in the fight, Wherever he extends his hand Suddenly a knife emerges! They eat the flesh of children And also drink the blood of women. Clothed in tanned skins, They mount the winds and tempests; And rapidly, in the blink of an eye, They lay waste to cities, Topple their walls to the ground, And destroy the strong citadels. Moving quickly, they bind the swift And slaughter the vigorous men. They are quicker in motion Than winds and tempests. Whenever news of them is heard on earth (to wit) ‘The Huns have set out (and) are coming!’ They blanket the whole of creation. Because they are sorcerers, They fly between heaven and earth. Their chariots are like the winds, And their swords and their lances Are like terrifying bolts of lightning. Holding straps in their hands And two or three horses, Each one of them leads with him Some fifty or sixty men, Traveling behind and in front of him Like winds and tempests. The sound of the battle-cry of just one of them Is like the roaring of lions. Indeed dread of the Huns Will overpower the entire earth; They will cover the whole earth Like the waters during the days of Noah, And they will overwhelm the edges of the created order: There is no one who can withstand them. These are the ‘numerous peoples’ About whom Ezekiel spoke Who will cover the whole earth As if they were clouds. ‘Fish will shudder before them, (As will) the birds of the sky And wild beasts and vermin of the earth And every species in creation; High mountains will be thrust down And fortified towers will collapse, Even the walls of the cities.’ On the earth will be a wasteland. For Ezekiel has prophesied That it will come to pass in the End of Days: They will burst out (and) come up from the land And cover the created order; Gog and Magog will prepare itself And arrive at the ‘hill country of Israel.’ Between the sea and Jerusalem He will place his encampment. Riders will fly off, descending Upon Egypt and opposite India; Leading away so many captives they cannot be numbered. People and riches, Cattle and property Which have now become his prey. Then Righteousness will summon Michael, the one who is leader of the host, To come down (and) destroy his encampment Just as (he destroyed) the encampment of Sennacherib. The angel, receiving the command, will draw The terrible and powerful sword, And departing, he will destroy his force In the twinkling of an eye! Righteousness will pick up and hurl Stones of fire upon the encampment. The slain on the ground will be as numerous As the (particles of) sand which cannot be counted; People and pack-animals will perish, The entire encampment will be consumed. The blaze will extend Unto the sea and to the islands. The bow will swerve from the hands Of Gog, the wicked ruler; Also his arrows (will drop) from his left hand: His entire encampment will be consumed. The inhabitants of Judaea will go out And loot his whole encampment. They will collect and pick up armament: Lances, arrows, and bows. For seven years within a fire They will burn them, as it is written: ‘They will not need to gather Wood from the field or thickets.’ Seven years they will throw in the fire Shields and clubs, Arrows, spears, and bows. They will prove sufficient for fueling the fire for seven years. Then the Lord will bring in His peace, Which attests His glorification among the heavens. And once more the empire of the Romans Will spring up and flourish in its place. It will possess the earth and its extremities, And no one will exist who opposes it. And when iniquity has become rife on earth And has polluted the whole of creation, Then a judgment will arise Which will entirely obliterate the people. The Son of Destruction, the Evil One, Will emerge and come upon the earth. A deceiver of humanity, An instigator of trouble over the whole earth. On the day when he comes to it, (when) the Son of Destruction arrives on earth, The created order will be thrown into commotion, And terror will engulf the earth. The sun will become dark in its place, And the stars will fall from the height; All the luminaries will be quenched, Darkness will cover the created order. The earth with its inhabitants will shake, And mountains and heights will quake; Springs and fountains will dry up, And the waves in the sea will abate And the fish therein grow still. Rulers will stop rendering judgment And priests will tremble in the sanctuary And military power will collapse. Confusion will be on the earth And all human powers will be paralyzed, For the Evil One will be ready. He will come to and enter Jerusalem. He will rebuild and establish himself in Zion, And will make himself to be God And enter into the sanctuary to take a seat In accordance with what the Apostle wrote to us. The Jews will take pride in him; They will prepare themselves and come to him. And he moreover will blaspheme when he says: ‘I, even I, am the Father and the Son! The First and the Last! There is no other god apart from me!’ But at that time ten thousand Jews will denounce him: They will answer him in truth: ‘You are a deceiver for (all) creatures! For the one whom our ancestors restrained At the top of the wood(en cross) on Golgotha Is (actually) the redeemer of (all) creatures, And he was raised up to the One Who sent him!’ Then the Evil One will be enraged And he will issue a command regarding those who denounced him That they should immediately die by the sword, And everyone will be too afraid to renounce him. Then he will begin to display Wonders through deception In the heavens and on the earth, Within the sea and on the dry land. He will summon the rain and it will fall; He will command the seed and it will sprout However he will not actually perform (miracles); He will be employing magic. He will command the waves and they will cease, And the winds will be obedient to him. He will suspend fruits on the trees And cause water to gush from the ground. He will address the leprous and they will become clean, (Speak to) the blind, and they will see light, He will call to the deaf and they will hear him, (Address) even the mute and they will speak. He will effect all the wonders Which Our Lord performed within the created order, Except that he will not be able to resurrect the dead, For he will not have authority over (the) spirits (of the dead). Lightening-flashes will be his messengers, And are the sign of his advent; Demons are his armies And the commanders of the devils are his pupils; He will dispatch the heads of his legions To distant lands Where they will display marvelous powers and healings And mislead the whole of creation. Behold, the Apostle has penned a warning for us In his epistle to the Thessalonians: ‘Let no word or no letter Trouble you that is not from us. For the rebellion comes first, Also the Man of Sin And he will exalt himself over God, Making himself to be God.’ And when the Accursed One comes And displays his mighty works and wonders, The nations will gather together and come As (if) they were going to see God. Groups and nations will join him, And every person will renounce their deity; Everyone will say of him to their fellow That they should acknowledge him, the Son of Destruction! Peoples will fall upon one another, Slaying each other with swords. The elect will flee from his presence To the peaks of mountains and hills, And there will be calamity on earth Unlike any that came before. Fear will fall upon all people And they will be overcome with terror. Children will renounce their father And follow after the Evil One; Priests will abandon their altars To serve as his heralds. People will flee to cemeteries And hide themselves among the dead, Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: ‘Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions! But as for us, woe is us! For when we die, Vultures will serve as escort for us!’ And if the days of that time were not shortened, The elect would never survive The calamities and afflictions. For Our Lord revealed (and) disclosed to us In his Gospel when He said: ‘Those days will be shortened For the sake of the elect and the saints.’ And when he has harassed the whole of creation, (When) the Son of Destruction (has bent it) to his will, Enoch and Elijah will be sent That they might persuade the Evil One. With a gentle question The saints will come before him, In order to expose the Son of Destruction Before the assemblies surrounding him: ‘If you are indeed God, Tell us what we ask of you: Where is the place that you have hidden The elders Elijah and Enoch?’ The Evil One will respond and say To the saints at that time: ‘When I wish (it), they are in the height(s), Or again should I choose, they are within the sea; For I have authority over habitations, Since there is no other god apart from me And I can make anything On earth (and) also in heaven!’ They will answer The Son of Destruction as follows: ‘If you are truly God, Call out to the deceased so that they will rise! For it is written within the books Of the prophets and the apostles That when the Messiah reveals Himself, He will resurrect the dead from the graves. If you cannot show us this (sign), Then the One who was crucified is greater than you! For he roused and resurrected those who were dead, And was exalted in great splendor.’ Then the Evil One will become enraged With the saints at that time; He will draw his terrible sword And sever the necks of the righteous ones. But Gabriel will arise (and) descend (With) Michael (as) military commanders; They will resurrect those saints While the Evil One stands confused with his servants. They will approach and seize that Accursed One And the Lord will rebuke (him) from heaven; Then He will destroy the Accursed One And all of his forces. Angels will suddenly approach And cast him into Gehenna, And all of those who believed in him Will be thrust into the flame(s). Then the Lord will come from above In splendor and with a company of His angels, And between earth and heaven A throne-chariot will be fixed there. He will admonish the sea and it will dry up; The fish within it will perish. He will dissolve the heavens and the earth, And there will be (only) darkness and gloom. He will dispatch fire upon the earth, And it will burn there for forty <days> Purifying it of iniquity And of pollution and of sins. A great throne will be adorned And the Son will be seated on the right; Seats will be positioned For the twelve apostles of the Son; And couches will be decorated for the martyrs And a royal chamber for the righteous ones. The Watchers will blow trumpets And the dead will arise from the dust; Fiery entities will suddenly go forth And assemble all the descendants of Adam. They will gather the wheat in a storehouse And throw the straw into the fire; The good will go forth into the Kingdom, And the bad will remain in Gehenna; The righteous will fly up to the height, And the sinners will burn in fire. The martyrs will float to the couch; The wicked will go out into darkness. And Christ will reign forever, He will be sovereign over each generation. To Him be the glory, and His mercy is over us For all time, amen, amen!

 In this version the timing The Resurrection of the Saints clearly seems to agree with a Post-Trib view I'm afraid.

If you deny that the The Church and Israel are separate covenants then you have no choice but to accept the Post-Trib position, as Chuck Missler likes to explain.  The Church developed Anti-Semitic views early on accepting Replacement theology and that is why the Truth of the nature of The Rapture has been so rare, prior to the re-emergence of Pro-Israel Christians in England following The Protestant Reformation.

This other Translation also agrees with me on Enoch and Elijah being The Witnesses.  And it agrees with my view I've argued for elsewhere that at the Time of Jesus's Resurrection others Arose too.