Japheth and the Eastern Orthodox Church

While speculation on the movements of people groups who tribally descend from the names given as sons and grandsons of Japheth in Genesis 10 will play a role in how I justify this thesis.  The theory itself is predicated on suggesting that your religion (or the religion of your culture if you yourself are non religious) should be more of a factor then your biological ancestry in deciding which Genesis Patriarch you are a Son of Biblically.

And with that in mind Genesis 9 pays special attention to Prophesying that the house of Japheth will one day dwell in the Tents of Shem, via the Tabernacle tents can Biblically be an idiom of religious observance.

By Eastern Orthodox I mean Christian Churches or Congregations that uphold all Seven Ecumenical Councils as authoritative but also descend from the Eastern rather than Western side of the 1054 Great Schism.

The people most universally agreed to descend from Japheth are the Hellens/Greeks via Javan.  Today that is Modern Greece and Cyprus, (and maybe also some nations north of Greece) and includes Hellenic minorities in Turkey, Alexandria, Antioch, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine & Jordan and other regions.  That happens to correspond to the generally most well known sub Church of the Eastern Orthodox, The Greek Orthodox Church.

The second most significant congregation of the Eastern Orthodox Communion is the Russian Orthodox Church.  I have a post strongly arguing that Magog is Russia.  In which I also placed Meshech and Tubal in Georgia and argued for associating Gomer with Ukraine and the House of Togarmah with people groups who lived in parts of Russia, Ukraine and Georgia.  Both of whom are also majority Eastern Orthodox nations.  But I’m now also thinking of perhaps placing Togarmah in Belarus which takes us even further North.  Note that "Mtskheta-Tbilisi" is in the official title of the Archbishop of Georgia.

Tiras the youngest son of Japheth is often identified with Thrace, the core Thracian nation of classical Antiquity was basically modern Bulgaria but at its greatest extent perhaps included pieces of every country bordering Bulgaria, all of which are Eastern Orthodox.  Actually I'm finding the Thracians might have extended more into Romania and Moldova more then I originally thought.

I think an argument could be made for identifying the Southern Carpathian Mountains with the Riphean Mountains of Ancient Hellenic Geography, which thus works for identifying Riphath with Romania and perhaps also Moldova.

Ashkenaz I kind of want to place near Ukraine in all of that context.  But I’m also thinking they could just be more Eastern Orthodox minorities within Turkey.  The City of Nicaea is on the shore of a Lake called Ascanius.  Nicaea was the seat of the 1st and 7th Ecumenical Councils, played a role in the First Crusade and was the capital of the Greek Eastern Empire while Constantinople was occupied by the Latins after the Fourth Crusade.  That could be a good argument for making the Patriarch of Constantinople himself the Patriarch of Ashkenaz.

Germanic Jews are called Ashkenazim because of a Rabbinic tradition of associating Ashkenaz with western Germany and Northern France.  But this tradition didn’t start till the 11th century and why it developed isn’t clear.  Before that Rabbinic traditions usually placed Ahskenaz first in Scythia (same region Josephus placed Magog, in modern Russia and Ukraine) and then later identified them with the Slavs.  The Slavic peoples are mostly Eastern Orthodox.  But I’m now tempted in this context to identify Ashkenaz as specifically Serbia and/or Bulgaria, placing them next to Riphath.

After giving it more thought I'm starting to lean towards Russia being Magog and the other Slavic Churches being Gomer and his Sons while the Romanian Orthodox Church is Tiras.  Or maybe Ecclesiastically the Slavs are just Gomer and Togarmah (or Gomer via Togarmah) as those names are paired together in Ezekiel 38 allowing Riphath to still be Romania.  And Tiras can be Albania since the Orthodox Church of Albania's bishop is called the Archbishop of Tirana, Durres and Albania.  Many Linguists do believe Albanian is the modern descendent of the language of the Ancient Thracians.

Madai is perhaps the most difficult son of Japheth to fit into this model.  We could say he represents Eastern Orthodox minorities who exist in former regions of the Medo-Persian Empire, like the Antiochian Orthodox Church and Eastern Orthodox Communities in Egypt, Sinai and Jerusalem.  But maybe also Madai being the most separated from the other sons of Japheth resulted in him being the only one left out and so Madai is still Zoroastrianism.  Either way the various Muslims of Iran I think are the spiritual descendants of Semites.

Apparently some Kurdish Christians have been Eastern Orthodox, though most have preferred the “Nestorian” Church.  And I have in the past on this blog speculated on the theory that the Kurds partly descend from the Medes, while also partly descending from Israelites.

What gives this thesis interesting implications for Prophecy is that I’ve kind of argued for the Eastern Orthodox Church possibly being the religion through which The Antichrist will rise to power in posts like the one on the Vicar of Christ Doctrine and where I argue for Justinian being a key to understanding Daniel 7.  Meanwhile I also have a post arguing for Iapetos a Greek form of Japheth being the name 666 points to.

I don’t want this theory being used to demonize the Eastern Orthodox however, as often happens with those looking to Catholicism or Islam for The Antichrist.  The Eastern Orthodox are fellow true Believers who I feel have at times been better stewards of The Gospel then any of us Western Christians.  If this is what happens it’ll be The Antichrist taking advantage of what they’ve gotten wrong as well as what they’ve gotten right.

David Bentley Hart is a Greek Orthodox whose main criticism of his own denomination is their tendency to wind up serving the state, which he sees manifesting today in how Putin is using the Russian Orthodox Church.  He doesn’t seem like someone who’s eschatology is Futurist and so wouldn’t endorse my theory for that reason but it’s something to note.

You might say that the Eastern Orthodox has been no less Statist than the Western Churches.  However the messy relationship between Church and State in Catholic and Protectant nations has mostly been Churches bending the state to their will, for better or for worse.  It is the Eastern Orthodox who have been most inclined to simply do what the Emperor says, even when that Emperor is ofically an Atheist like Stalin.

Below the Jump Break is some supplementary speculation that isn't actually important.

No one in America thought Hitler was The Antichrist (a follow up post)

 This is a follow up to this post.

https://midseventiethweekrapture.blogspot.com/2019/08/did-anyone-actually-think-hitler-was.html

I've done some more research on this topic largely thanks to a book called Naming The Antichrist: The History of an American Obsession which focuses on the history of popular Antichrist views among Futurist Americans.

In that prior post I talked about the Mussolini theory existing at the time, and well it wasn't just a couple people, the popular mainstream view among most Futurist Evangelicals especially the Dispensationaliists was that he would be either Mussolini or rise to power via the League of Nations, and of course some combined those views.

The reason none of these Christians who were anti-Communist looked to Stalin or the USSR is because they viewed Magog as Russia.  And while occasionally some have tried to make Gog and the Antichrist the same person they've generally been viewed as separate, and it turns out at this time it was popular to view Gog and the Antichrist as being adversaries.  So yeah the anti-Bolshevism of the Fascists in that context further helped make them an Antichrist candidate agaisnt Stalin as Gog.

But what about the fringe minorities who broke from standard Dispensationalist orthodoxy?  Well only one alternative approach to Bible Prophecy of this era was considered worth noting by this book anyway, and that was the views of William Dudley Pelley and other members of his Silver Legion of America commonly called The Silver Shirts.  They were the progenitors of what we today know as the Christian Identity Movement, an Antisemtic offshoot of British Israelism (which was Philosemitic originally).

The internet talks a lot about Post-War American Neo-Fascism, but the Silver Legion of America was one of the actual American Fascist Parties of the Fascist era.  However they were distinct from their European Counterparts in the way they incorporated aspects of traditional American Fundamentalist Apocalypticism.  Pelley said different seemingly contradictory things about the Identity of The Antichrist.  He accused The Jews, Communists, FDR and Bernard Baruch.  What's interesting is that what he said about Hitler makes him the opposite of The Antichrist.  

There is no real basis in Revelation for some good mortal political leader who'll be opposed to or precede the Antichrist, but Extra-Biblical traditions have constantly tried to create one, from the Last Roman Emperor to the Great Catholic Monarch to the Islamic Mahdi tradition to Mormonism's Rider on the White Horse prophecy. Back when people thought Napoleon was the Antichrist this role was given to Tsar Alexander and maybe also Wellington. Among those turn of the Millennium Evangelical End Times movies there were two that gave some role like this to a Last President of the United States Megiddo: The Omega Code 2 and Left Behind: World At War.  The Silver Shirts opposed the then current President however, Pelley was such a fan of Hitler that he seemed to be all for giving this unofficial Prophetic role to Hitler.

This was a very minority fringe belief however, Pelley ran in the 1936 Presidential Election but couldn't even get close to 0.03% of the vote.  Most Americans who had Futurist views of Bible Prophecy couldn't see Hitler as positioned to be relevant at all.

You may think, "if Hitler's geographical position as leading a country seemingly not mentioned in The Bible is a reason he wasn't eligible then how has accusing US Presidents been so popular?".  I think part of it is a logic similar to the Uncanny Valley, Germany was close enough to the Biblical World that the Prophets could have had a frame of reference to identify it, but the American Continents are so far removed that of course they couldn't have explained them to people living in Judea 2000 years ago.

But also American Exceptionalism has caused American Christians to ignore all logic when it comes to their wanting America to be in Bible Prophecy.  

Historicists of the era focused on the Vatican as they always do, and that never fit the Nazis who were quite Anti-Catholic.  But while Mussolini was also anti-Clerical originally he did wind up making a deal with the Vatican that has made him stay relevant to Historicism to this day.

The only people who might have seen Hitler as the Antichrist were Catholics in Germany and the countries Hitler invaded.  Maybe also the descendants of the Husites in Bohemia.  But I don't even know how to begin investigating that topic in English.

It's also possible some Jews of the time may have identified him with Armilus.  But I also know no Muslims called him the Dajjal because the Nazis actually made a cozy alliance with the radical Muslims in their war agaisnt The Jews.

Why do I want to talk about this subject so much?  Because the commonly unsourced claim that people thought Hitler was the Antichrist encourages a bad stereotype of Futurists, that we can see the Antichrist anywhere.  But the fact is at least during this era they knew certain requirements were necessary besides just being Popular or Evil enough.

Daniel 9:27 is about The Cross

I've already talked about how I now believe the 70th Week of Daniel is Nisan of 30 AD to Adar of 37 AD.

But I've been putting a lot of thought into specifically Daniel 9:27 and am starting to think it's about The Passion in even more ways.

First of all what is the Abomination?  

This ties in with how I have come to view John 5:43 as fulfilled by John 19:15 when the Chief Priest says "We have no King but Caesar".  I've already talked about how Israel demanding a Human King was them rejecting YHWH as their King, and Caesar was being worshiped as a living God in the Eastern Provinces.  The High Priest committed this idolatrous Abomination the same day he later had to offer the Passover Sacrifice in The Temple.

And as I've pointed out before the "he" associated with the Abomination isn't in the Hebrew, it's not identifying any person as setting it up.

The Hebrew word for "Desolation" or "Desolate" is a word that can also be translated "Abandoned" Jeremiah's Desolation of Jerusalem is about Jerusalem being depopulated after it was conquered by Nebuchadnezzar, but it can also be connected to YHWH's Divine presence leaving The Temple at that same time.  Whatever Divine presence the Second Temple had (in John 4) left it at or before Pentecost to indwell in The Church which is why it's gone in Acts 7.

This word is used twice in Daniel 9:27 however.  In the KJV the verse ends with "upon the desolate" in some translations the last word is "desolator" but in the Young's Literal Translation it's "Desolate one".  On the Cross I think the "abandoned one" is Jesus "my God, my God, why has thou Forsaken me".  

The Consummation and that which was determined or "the decreed end" was poured out onto Jesus on The Cross and then He said "it is finished".

I'm considering a very unique hunch on The Temple's Location

[This theory I'm abandoning for now Update October 2020]

I'm sorry but Magog is Russia

I agree with Chris White on the timing of Ezekiel 38, and maybe also 39 or maybe 39 is Armageddon, but I certainly don’t believe either of these chapters can be Pre or Mid Trib.  So I’m not defending the identification of Magog (and/or some of it's allies) with the general region of Russia because I expect any Bible Prophecy using that name to be fulfilled in the near future.

I also agree with Chris White that Meshech and Tubal (and Rosh if it's a name) are in the area of Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan.  Tbilisi is the name of Georgia's Capital.  Actually it seems like Georgia alone (Iberia in antiquity) can account for both Meshech and Tubal.  (And Rosh is the one that's disputed whether it's a name at all.)  Attempts to make a Turkish identification for Tubal are entirely dependent on a nation called Tabal. Tabal might not even have been where most historians think it was, our documentation on it is sketchy, it could have always been the same place as the Georgian Tubal.  And this southern Anatolian location is essentially the same region that elsewhere is Biblicaly Tarshish.  Also clerically the head of the Georgian Orthodox Church's full title is Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia, the Archbishop of Mtskheta-Tbilisi and Metropolitan Bishop of Bichvinta and Tskhum-Abkhazia.

But it’s amusing to me how much White thinks those identifications debunk associating this prophecy with Russia.  Because in fact that region has a long history of being under the hegemony of Russia, the Tsars captured lost and recaptured that region multiple times, it was part of the USSR (in fact Stalin was ethnically Georgian) and now Putin is asserting his power over that region in multiple ways, last I checked he was still only militarily in Georgia but it’s safe to say all former USSR nations are part of his ultimate ambitions.  But again I’m not gonna predict how successful he will be in that, I only mention Putin here because he adds to the precedent of that region being one Russia seeks to control.

Josephus identified Magog with the Scythians.  And there is no dispute the region that is pointing to is north of the Black Sea, all in parts of modern Russia and Ukraine, another country that has frequently been part of the Russian empire and could be again in the future if Russia has its way.

Chris White and others attempt to deconstruct the significance of that identification by pointing out how “Scythians” was a term the Greeks used for many nomadic tribes of this region who may not have been as closely related to each other as the Greeks often assumed.  But that really doesn’t matter.  

1. Magog is not the only Genesis 10 name to have multiple people groups descended from them, remember all the nations are supposed to go back to these names and there are way more then 70.
Even if not all the Scythians were Magogite by strict patrilineal descent, Josephus is still clearly telling us this is the area to look for Magog in.

2. The fact is there is no solid alternative to what Josephus told us.  And the arguments for putting Magog in modern Turkey are entirely based on past attempts to interpret Ezekiel 38-39 Preteristically by identifying Gog with Gyges of Lydia.

White also tries to argue Josephus was simply wrong about the Scythians because "Modern Historians" view their migration pattern differently, but that's because "Modern Historians" don't believe in The Table of Nations.  For those of us who do believe in The Table of Nations (and even most Local Flood proponents need to include all the Indo Europeans among descendants of Noah) it's not just the Scythians who have to get to wherever their Secular History starts from Turkey, they all do.  Josephus says nothing however to particularly associate Magog or the Scythians with anything south of the Caucus Mountains, that part of his description of the migration is about Japheth in general.  In Wars 7.7.4 Josephus further identifies a group of Scythians as living by Late Meotis/Maeotis aka the Sea of Azov.

Meanwhile the Caspian Gates tradition shows that throughout Late Antiquity and the Early Medieval period north of the Caucus Mountains was where Christians, Jews and Muslims believed the hordes of Gog and Magog lived.  One of the most popular proposed locations for the Gates is in the Russian province of Dagestan. Another is the Darial Pass in Ossetia-Alania  The third is the Wall of Gorgon which is roughly the barrier between Iran and the former USSR republics east of the Caspian Sea, but I consider that the least likely of the three candidates since north of the main Biblical Lands is the point.

I don't believe the Gates of Alexander legend really happened because I don't believe Wall building was in Alexander's character.  But I favor the Darial Pass being the inspiration for the legend for three reasons.  1. It best fits the between two mountains imagery.  2.  The others weren't fortified till Late-Parthian or Sassanian times deep into the AD era while this one had fortifications going back to 150 BC.  Meaning only it was already fortified when Josephus referred to the Caspian Gates (Antiquities 18.4.4 and Wars 7.7.4).  3.  While all three regions were part of greater Scythia, this region is where modern Scythians still survive today, still speaking a Scythian language and some even still practicing their ancient pre-Christian Scythian Paganism.

I also think it's possible the names of Gog and Magog could be etymologically related to the name of the Caucus mountains themselves.  Jerome specifically placed Magog beyond the Caucasus by the Caspian Sea.

Kaukas is the name of a mythical ancestor of the various North-Eastern Caucasian peoples like the Nakh and others who live in Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia.  Now a lot of these traditions make him a son of Togarmah, but I think the name could simply be a form of Gog.  I think the Greeks included these people when they spoke of Scythians even though they didn't speak what modern scholars classify as a Scythian language.  Ancient Georgia/Iberia also had a region called Gogharena.

And no identifying Russia with Magog didn't begin during The Cold War, there is documentation for example that many Protestants in both Brittan and the United Stated identified Russia with Magog during the Crimean War of 1853-1856.

"In 1840, John Nelson Darby wrote that Gog, referred to in the book of Ezekiel6 , was the contemporary state of Russia, which was “extending her power over the nations who will be found under Gog” (quoted in Boyer, 1992, 154). While not the first to make this interpretation of the Bible, it was Darby’s preaching that influenced John Cumming, the man who popularized Russia’s hypothesized role in the Endtimes with his book, The End (1855), published during the Crimean War."

That's a quote taken from an article against the Russia theory, on page 13.

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.566.1374&rep=rep1&type=pdf

One dispute often brought into this discussion is whether the uses of Genesis 10 names in Bible Prophecy should be interpreted strictly geographically or if they can be “bloodlines” them as people groups that may have moved around.  Though it’s primarily those taking the Geographical position who are very hardlined that it should always only be that method.  Feeling that movements of people groups though out history is so complicated and uncertain that it can be used to make anything work.

The problem is it’s absurd to me to suggest that it should be universally the same method every time.  The context of the reference needs to be considered in determining whether it’s about the land or the people.  And in the case of Ezekiel 38 within one chapter the context of how different names are mentioned changes.

Magog, Meshech and Tubal are definitely references to their lands geographically, the word "land" is used in that verse.  But with Gomer and Togarmah it’s the opposite, their “bands” are what are being referred to not their locations.  But even more specifically than that with Togarmah it says the “House of Togarmah”.  Every Biblical reference to the “House of David” is agreed to refer to the family of David wherever they may currently be, not the land David ruled.  It could be these "bands" refer to mercenary or volunteer troops and not the proper nations those names refer to at all.

Persia, Cush and Phut are a little less clear which method is most appropriate. Fortunately those three groups haven’t significantly moved.  Some of them have migrated and can indeed now be found on every continent.  But primarily the Persians are still in Iran, the Cushites are still in Sudan and the Berbers are still in North Africa west of Egypt.

So yes the original settlement of Togarmah was the Anatolian city of Tegarama who's exact location is disputed.  But as Bill Cooper documents in After The Flood they were conquered by the Assyrians who did to them the same thing they did to Israel.  Many traditions have identified many tribes in and around the Caucus mountains to be descendants of Togarmah.  But what’s most interesting to me is how the Khazzars who partly converted to Judaism identified their people as descendants of Togarmah.  The core of their land was entirely within modern Russia to the north of Georgia.  Christian of Stavelot in his Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam (860–870s) refers to the Khazzars as Gazari and says they lived in the lands of Gog and Magog.  However there are also traditions that associate Armenia with Togarmah.  Of course this opportunity to associate the Khazzars with Gog and Magog is sometimes abused by Anti-Semities, no the Ashkenazim aren't Khazzars.

Now because of what I believe about how to deal with the sons and grandsons of Noah’s sons I will not consider Ashkenaz or Riphath relevant to these chapters.  Gomer does clearly originally refer to the Cimmerians who were in Anatolia, but again the Cimmerians moved around.  The most solid argument for connecting them to Russia is Crimea.  But it’s also possible the Scandinavian tribes who eventually came to Russia in medieval times could be at least partially of Gomerite stock.  And according to Herodotus the original homeland of the Cimmerians was between the Thyras and Tanais rivers (Dinester and Don) much of the same location he associates with the Scythians, Ukraine and parts of Russia.

Russia is not the only place descendants of these two Genesis 10 names can be traced to.  But the point is I already made a strictly geographical argument for Russia being the Land of Magog, so evidence of Gomer and Togarmah both winding up also in Russia further backs that up.

On it’s own I would not consider the “uttermost parts of the north” to prove anything since it could just mean anywhere North of Israel.  But since we have other good reasons to place Magog in Russia that identification only further makes things fit.

You can find a few articles online arguing for Magog being Babylon, based on arguing Magog itself being a cipher for Babel similar to Sheshech in Jeremiah, and other thematic connections, like Babylon otherwise being missing from Ezekiel's prophecies of Judgments on the nations.  However in the context of Mystery Babylon I should point out how the Tsars claimed Moscow was the Third Rome and that like the original Rome it too was a city on Seven Hills.

Tarshish, Sheba and Dedan are mentioned in the prophecy not as allies of the invaders but as nations criticizing the invaders.  If anyone in this chapter is definitely Turkey it’s Tarshish which was Tarsus.  (Though it is amusing how multiple competing Tarshish theories can be brought together by just saying Tarshish represents NATO here.)  At least one of Sheba and Dedan would definitely be Saudi Arabia, maybe both are, or the other could be Jordan, Kuwait, Dubai or Yemen.

All that is if the borders of the Middle East resemble their modern borders when this prophecy happens, it’s very possible they won’t anymore.

Again I do NOT believe in an imminent Gog and Magog invasion, this is the conclusion I’m coming to about Magog with genuinely no dog in that fight.  Chris White tries to make himself seem just as unbiased by taking basically the same timing position I do.  But White I feel has a tendency I used to have towards wanting to be contrarian on issues like this, he wants to deconstruct the Russia identification because it’s popular and so often tied to other views he’s against.

Joel Richardson wants to deconstruct the Russia identification because he feels it better fits his Islamic Antichrist view to make it Turkey.  I am still undecided on exactly what I believe about the cultural/religious background of the "Antichrist".  But Islam is the world’s fastest growing religion and it already has a very strong presence in parts of Russia, and even more in many former USSR nations.  Putin is devoutly Eastern Orthodox but a future leader could take them in a Muslim direction.  The identifications I have made here could fit seeing the invaders as the Shiiites (Iran and Azerbaijan are the two leading Shiite nations) and those criticizing them as the Sunnis.  Dagestan interestingly is a province of Russia that is already majority Muslim, as is neighboring Chechnya and Ingushetia.

Update October 2020 on if Rosh is a name or not.

It's interesting how complicated that debate is with there being Magog is not Russia supporters willing to say it is a name and Magog is Russia supporters willing to say it's not.  Since I originally made this post I have become the latter category.

The Septuagint/LXX witness is kind of the main smoking gun argument for saying it is a name since so many Traditionalist Christians trust it so much.  But on another Blog I've long expressed my reservations regarding the LXX.

The Latin Vulgate, Aramaic Targums and Aramaic Peshitta all support it not being a name but a word for Chief or Head.  Now I know many of my fellow Protestants love to go "the Vulgate must be wrong" but what's more important to me is having two Aramaic witnesses.  As a fellow Semitic language they had an inherent advantage in translating the Hebrew properly.  Jerome meanwhile studied Hebrew and talked to Rabbis and many Old Testament differences between Vulgate and LXX were him correcting LXX mistakes that were well known to the Hebrews even back then.

Now it is still possible The Holy Spirit was using prophetic word play.  The USSR was a Confederacy of nations each with it's own Nasi but the one called Russia was the chief among them.  Now today the USSR is gone and I believe this Prophecy happens after the Millennium.  But since I believe Jesus is a Communist, He may very well restore the USSR at the start of the Millennium, though I do suspect He's more of a Menshevik then a Leninist, or better yet a Left SR.

But regardless, the problem with the Rosh fixation is so many people think Russia as Magog is utterly dependent on that identification and so act like deconstructing that is all they need to do.  But I can make the argument without ever bringing that up, or making any Meshach=Moscow connection either.

Meanwhile in the context of my observations about defining the Genesis 10 nations by their Languages, the only surviving Scythian Language is spoken only in Ossetia a region that's partly in Russia and partly in the Russian occupied parts of Georgia.

Update June 14th 2021: So Christ White has changed his position on Rosh being a name in his new study on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hChZZjwFe3Q

But that's not all he's changed, he no longer talks about Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan when discussing Meshach and Tubal, instead he wants to place all the Japhetic names of Ezekiel 38 in "Eastern Turkey".  I can't help but assume this change happened because he realized what I argued above, Meshach and Tubal being in Georgia helps rather then hurts Magog being Russia.

Update March 29th 2022: Debunking Anatolian Tubal once and for all.

I've looked into the Basis for the Anatolian Tubal and it's even worse and more embarrassing then I thought it was.  The so called Anatolian Tubal is what was in classical antiquity known as Tyana but more anciently was Tuwana or Tuwanuwa, and there may have been a related tribe called Tuali.  

The second letter of this word appears to be one for U or W which you can then equate to the Hebrew Vav, but the Vav is also sometimes V and Beth is also sometimes V so maybe the Hebrew confused them?  Well no Vav being also V is a very late development in the languages history, one that is certainly not a factor in anything in the Pentateuch.  So the entire etymological basis for this identification is worthless.

The Georgian Tubal identification is far more credible, their Capital is called that to this day Tbilisi and is known to have been called that since very ancient times.  The variations are caused in part by the occasional L and R confusion (it's not something that only happens with English to Japanese, I have always heard the L in the middle of Colonel as an R).  And after that Iberes and Iberia/Iberian comes from the T being dropped for some reason.  

The argument for a Meshech in ancient Cappadocia is more valid, and here's the thing I think originally Meshech did settle there and their original post Flood Language was the language modern scholars call Hattian (not to be confused with the Indo-European language spoken by the Anatolian Hitties), but as that region was eventually conquered by various other Anatolian Empires their remnant moved to where their brother Tubal lived in Georgia and adopted their language(s) and that is why Eschatological references always pair those two together. Cappadocia and Tyana are not close enough to justify that consistent pairing.

I have a controversial new take on the Fall of Rome, it didn’t.

It only changed.  And no I don’t just mean by that the Eastern Empire’s continuation.

During what everyone agrees qualifies as Roman history it’s form of government changed multiple times, regimes were replaced by military force, it divided into separate smaller states, it’s religion changed, it’s capital moved (not just the big move to Constantinople, eventually Rome was no longer even the regional capital of Italy), in one half it’s language changed, and we also saw the overall ethnic makeup of the citizenry shift via the assimilating of conquered peoples and immigrants.

So with that understanding of how flexible and changeable what Rome is can be, there is no real reason to refuse to accept the Ottoman Empire’s claim to simply being a change in religion and administration of the Eastern Empire.  And the Tsar’s claim is just as valid since they replaced the Eastern Emperor’s role in the Eastern Orthodox Church, then WWI and it's aftermath saw those successor states’ forms of government change again back to being Republics, in name at least.

But even before the 1454 changes the Islamic states could already be viewed as Roman offshoots.  After all I’ve become convinced the original Mecca was really Petra and it was in the Roman Province of Palaestina Salutaris or Arabia Petrea.  And what we now think of as Islamic architecture clearly evolved out of Byzantine architecture.  Arabs were already becoming a fixture of the Eastern Roman Empire even before Muhammad, just look at the history involving Mavia.  And pre Constantine an Arab had become the actual first Christian Emperor, Philip the Arabian.  People who study coins are also aware that prior to Abd Al-Malik the Arabs were still minting Byzantine style coins in the former Roman provinces (and Sassanid coins in Persia) using the same mints.  So there is plenty of reason to view the Arab empire as also another Roman splinter state.  We've also now discovered that Trajan had conquered more of Arabia then we used to think, extending to include Madain Selah, Dumat and Tayma.

But it’s not just the Eastern Empire that didn’t actually fall.  Thersites The Historian has a video on how various elements of Feudalism basically evolved from the privatization of Roman Offices, Duke/Dux and Count/Comte both come from Roman titles. .The Senate continued to meet well after the Western Empire’s “Fall” into the 600s.  Liberius was a roman Prefect in Fifth Century Gaul.  The Pope and other Bishops had become Pontiffs so they carried on the Roman state religion clerically.  Latin remained the language of the ruling class right on through the Reformation and has influenced multiple younger languages.  Right on the Wikipedia Page for Sardinia it says "Early medieval Sardinian political institutions evolved from the millennium-old Roman imperial structures with relatively little Germanic influence.".

And Justinian’s reforms of the Roman law code are the foundation of Europe's legal system to this day.  Certain history YouTubers have made a point out of how Rome's sense of Law and Justice was what they viewed as their defining characteristic over any other features of their culture.  So how much the Laws of Europe are still Roman can be viewed as the strongest argument that Rome never fell.

In 800 AD Charlemagne was crowned the new Western Emperor by The Pope.  The Holy Roman Emperors were the successors to his Principate, as later were the Habsburgs, Napoleons and Kaisers.  WWI caused the end of four different Principates, but also a rise of new Republics.

And now the European Union is seeking to bring these disparate provinces back together.

Update 9/5/2020: here's a fun YouTube Video from Jack Rackman with the same premise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcxMiQhLITY

Update May 2022:  I made about how according to Genesis 10-11 The Bible defined Nations largely by their languages.  Well the Language of Rome being Latin is in it's ancient from still the Liturgical Language of the Roman Catholic Church.  But more importantly the languages as commonly spoken continued to change and evolve and split up into the modern Romance Languages, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Catalan in the west as well as Romanian in Eastern Europe.  And then while English is classified as a Germanic Language half our vocabulary comes from Latin.

My Ancestry of Charlemagne post among other things documents how Charlemagne descended from a lot of Ancient Romans, including specifically Gallo-Roman Aristocracy.

Update Ocotber 2022: Here's another Video on the Subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqoHvTMNCsY

Mystery Babylon as an Adulteress

The more technical arguments for making Mystery Babylon Jerusalem don't hold up at all.  What does hold up are the more thematic connections to themes in the Hebrew Bible about her as a wife of YHWH engaged in Harlotry with The World.

The problem is a lot of Christians are uncomfortable with accepting that that could be us, we think The Church is supposed to the one people of God who won't fall into the same pitfalls that Samaria and Jerusalem fell into.  Even when more fringe elements are criticizing the mainstream Church it's usually in the context of wanting to deny that they actually count as The Church, as legitimately part of the Body and Bride of Christ.

So Protestants and Evangelicals and Torah Keepers point out the ways in which Mystery Babylon can apply to the Catholic Church, but are unwilling to see how we've been guilty of the same basic sins in our own way.

I'm not an Historicist in remotely the traditional sense.  But I do think it's fascinating how the clues in Revelation about Mystery Babylon both point to Rome and to her being either The or A Church.  Meaning on some level however indirectly this book that even the most skeptical critics can't date to later then the mid second century predicted Rome becoming Christian.

The Revelation is drawing on Old Testament imagery, but it's directed at The Church, at Seven Churches in Asia Minor.  And the Jezebel of Thyatira is associated with a lot of the same imagery as the Harlot of Revelation 17.

However the time when Rome became Christian is also the time when OG Rome on the Tiber River ceases to be the only candidate for who Rome is, because that is when Constantinople was founded.

In my view the only cities eligible to be considered candidates for the Seven Hilled city of Revelation are ones that define themselves that way as a positive because they want to be seen as an heir to Rome.  The main three candidates are modern Rome, Constantinople/Istanbul and Moscow.

God's judgments are for correction, this Harlot no matter who she is should not be seen as being permanently rejected, this all goes back to Ezekiel 16.

I have to admit I've spent much of the last year or two trying to be convinced of a form of Post-Millennialism, The Revivalist form however is the only form I'd accept.  I don't want to be a Prophet of Doom predicting this world has to get a lot worse before it can get better.

And I understand the Post-Mil and Partial Preterist arguments about Revelation 20.  But in my look at Church History I see the Church as fitting the Revivalist Post-Mill interpretation of that Chapter for a lot less then a Thousand years, not more.  We were a Camp set apart and separate from The World not even three hundred years.  Only the Ancient Church of the East (often misleadingly called Nestorians) even came close to being like that for a full thousand years.

What I have become more open to are elements of Historicism, but not the Day=Year theory, so if someone has a form of it that works without that nonsense, point me to it and I'll give it a shot.