Eschatology views Tier Ranking

I'm going to rank various positions on Eschatology in terms of how I personally feel about them at the time of my writing this post on Saturday November 13th of 2021.

S Tier: The Position(s) I currently favor.

I'm currently a Pre-Millennial Futurist with a Rapture Position that can be called "Mid-Trib", but not what many assume Mid-Trib means in that what The Rapture is I view mostly the same as Post-Tribbers, it is the Second Coming, and from my position's own POV the Tribulation by definition ends at The Rapture.  And The Last Trump is the Seventh Trumpet.

I also consider some Idealist readings of Revelation also true, it is also a symbolic summery of The Entire Biblical Meta narrative, but that doesn't conflict with it also being future events, because that's what every good final episode of a saga should be.

A Tier: Positions I'm currently very open to being converted to.

Historicism in it's Pre-Millennial form, Partial-Preterism and Revivalist post-Millennialism, or something that combines elements of those. 

I kind of want to be convinced of something like that now given other things I believe.  But it wouldn't be likely to be any in their current most well known forms, since my hypothetical Preterism wouldn't be 70 AD focused (not for Matthew, Mark or Revelation anyway) and my Historicism would be less fixated on The Vatican viewing Christian Monarchy in general as the Abomination of Desolation.

If I did abandon Futurism I would probably retire this blog and start a new one.

B Tier: Views I consider firmly wrong but not in any way heretical.

Middleism, only in that separating Matthew's Olivette Discourse from Revelation I view as untenable, whichever time period one is about so is the other.

Also any views where my only or main objections come down to not interpreting Revelation as Chronologically as I do.  But thus far everyone I've seen doing that is also guilty of something down below, (It's mainly associated with Post-Trib, Chris White's Pre-Wrath and Preterism).

C Tier: Views I consider tied to Heresy but merely minor ones

Dispensationalism (Pre-Trib, some forms of Mid-Trib, the Pre-Wrath view of Chris White), Supersecessionism (Most forms of Post-Trib, probably some hypothetical forms of Mid-Trib, and also today most Non Futurists).

And also Domminionism which mainly manifests as Reconstructionist Post-Millennialism but can be made compatible with other views.

D Tier: Views heretical in their rejections of core doctrines of the Faith.

Any view that denies a literal bodily Resurrection of The Dead.  Which is firmly required for Full Preterism and Amillenialism.

F Tier: Basically not even really Christian at all anymore.

Any view that identifies the Satan of The New Testament with YHWH The God of The Hebrew Bible.  Like Marcionism and the most well known forms of Gnosticism.

Often goes hand in hand with throwing out Revelation altogether as a False Prophecy.  But they may also selectively use stuff from Revelation.  Also these people are generally also doing the D Tier Heresy.

The Kingdoms of The World are Become The Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ

This statement made right after the Seventh Trumpet sounds is why Post-Tribbers and others who want to play around with the Chronology of Revelation think the Seventh Trumpet can't sound till right when The Millennium begins.

Last year I made a post arguing for The Last Trumpet being the Yom Kippur Jubilee Trumpet.

The Jubilee Trumpet doesn't actually sound when the Jubilee begins, it sounds about six months earlier on Yom Kippur to announce the coming Jubilee Year.

This could become an argument for a Mid Seventh year Rapture view, or we could argue in this typpological context one half year become three and a half years.

The Parusia events do happen to start happening immediately.  But the full realization of Christ taking over the World is still yet future.

I now view The Last Trump as Yom Kippur

I still view the Last Trump of Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 as being the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 10 and 11.  But I've changed from viewing that Trumpet as sounded on Yom Teruah to viewing it as sounding on Yom Kippur.  I had flirted with this theory before, but am now convinced by nuances I didn't notice before.

But I need to lay some groundwork first.

Chris White likes to draw a strong distinction between the Shofar and the Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10 and 31:6, saying it is only the Silver Trumpets that the Prophets associated with the Day of The LORD.

First of all I think drawing such a strong distinction between them is invalid.  Hosea 5:8 used both in the same verse in a way that could justify seeing them as synonyms.  The assumption that the Shofar was a Ram's Horn is not really Biblically proven.  Joshua 6 does once use Qeren (Horn) to describe those Shofars, but that word is also used of the Horns of the Brazen Altar so we know it can refer to objects made of metal.  Every time the KJV of Joshua 6 says "Ram's" however it's actually using the word Yobel, the word for Jubilee, none of the Hebrew words for Ram, Goat or Lamb are in that chapter.

But if they are distinct then it's only the Shofar that is explicitly tied to the Day of The LORD.  Most explicitly in Zephaniah 1:14-18 which I'll discus more later.  But also Joel 2:1, 15-16, where my personal theory is verse 1 is the Sixth Trumpet when the Day of the LORD is nigh but not quite here yet, and then 15-16 is the Seventh Trumpet and a pretty solid description of the Rapture.  Psalm 81 which I've discussed before also uses Shofar.

Isaiah 27:13 is also interesting.   Now when Pre-Tribbers (or more specifically an old Prophecy In The News episode) try to make that verse about the Rapture they argue the word for "perish" can be translated "disappear" or "vanish" to help their Secret Rapture doctrine, I'm not gonna support that.  What I think is that those ready to perish are believers who because of their Faith in the Resurrection are prepared to die for their Faith in the Messiah.  Remember pretty much all non Pre-Tribbers agree the Rapture happens during a time of persecution.

There are other uses of Shofar in the Prophets and Psalms that could be about the the Eschatological Trumpets of Revelation 8-11, but these are the ones I'm most strongly interested in.

It is also the Shofar that is used when YHWH's voice is described as being like a Trumpet in Exodus 19:13-16, 20:18 and Isaiah 58:1.  So that shows that Revelation 1:10& 4:1 have the Shofar in mind, and Hebrews 12:19 is probably the same.  And since the Greek is using the same word in those verses as every reference to the Rapture Trump and the Seven Trumpets it's likely they too are Shofar.

Also in the Hebrew Bible only the Shofar is associated with the number 7 thanks to Joshua 6.  In the Torah it's always singular when it is used, but the Silver Trumpets are inherently a pair, a duo.

Chris White and one Kariate website I used to visit argued that there is no Biblical proof for Yom Teruah of Leviticus 23:24 and Numbers 29:1 being about Trumpets.  In the past on this blog I'd argued against their position, but now I've come to agree with it.

The word Teruah is associated with the Silver Trumpets in Numbers 10 and the Shofar in places like Joshua 6.  But there are also plenty of places where it doesn't seem to involve Trumpets at all.  And to make things even more confusing thanks to Leviticus 25:9 the First day of the Seventh Month isn't even the only Holy Day the word Teruah is directly linked to.

In Leviticus 25:9 Teruah is used of the sounding of the Shofar on the Yom Kippur that comes six months prior to the Jubilee year.  The KJV confusingly translated the word "Jubilee" here, but every other time "Jubilee" appears in the KJV including the very next verse it is Yobel.

I had even very recently tried to use Zephaniah 1:16 as smoking gun proof that the Day of the LORD is Yom Teruah.  But the word "Day" is not used directly of Teruah in that verse but rather of the Shofar, it is the day of the Shofar's Teruah.  And in the Torah that day is the Yom Kippur of the 49th Year.

I still think the Resurrection and Ascension of the Two Witnesses possibly happens on Yom Teruah.  I'm thinking of connecting the 10 days that would begin there and end with The Rapture to the 10 days of tribulation refereed to in the message to Smyrna, and typologically to the ten days of Genesis 24:55.  But that's a conjecture and maybe all of this happens on the 10th or at least the evening of the 9th.

In my last post discussing Yom Kippur I showed that the "fast" of Yom Kippur ends at Sunset of the Tenth day.  I shall speculate that that is also when The Trumpet sounds.

Naturally making the Day of the LORD the pre Jubilee Yom Kippur backs up seeing the Jubilee as a type of the Millennium.

I was suprised how rarely the word Shofar is actually used in the Torah.  Three out of five uses are saying the voice of YHWH is like a Shofar.  Only this Yom Kippur prior to the Jubilee verse uses it of an instrument the Israelites sound.

I'm not in this post going to make any date setting guesses based on theories about the proper Jubilee cycle.  But since even arguing the Rapture happens on Yom Kippur is treated as date setting by Pre-Wrathers, I shall direct you all to my post refuting the anti date setting argument.

There is no Wrath before the Seventh Trumpet.

Alan Kurshner supports his position that the Eschatological Wrath of God is more then just the Seven Bowls by saying the word "Wrath" doesn't have to be used for the concept of "Wrath" to be in mind.

I do not disagree with that on it's own, after all the word "Parousia" isn't in Revelation at all but I strongly feel Revelation tells us when that happens by describing it's characteristics.

However my strong belief that we are not in Wrath during the first half of the book is based on more then just the rarity of the word itself popping up in the first 11 chapters.  It's based on specifically what we are told when Wrath is explicitly mentioned.

After the Seventh Trumpet is sounded Revelation 11:18 says that His Wrath is Come, Wrath starting is an effect of which the Seventh Trumpet is a cause.  The only time the word Wrath is used before the Seventh Trumpet is sounded is during the Sixth Seal events of Revelation chapter 6, but it's not any heavenly voice saying it there, it's the Kings of The Earth, not a credible source.  Again see my post on the Non Signs.

A common explanation of the difference between Tribulation and Wrath is that "Tribulation is what Man does and Wrath is what God does".  This definition is often promoted by Pre and Post Tirbbers, people who don't even consider such a distinction relevant to the timing of The Rapture.

Even if I partially agreed with that I would still say the events associated with the Seals and first 6 Trumpets are not directly God's doing the same way the Bowls are.  After all events Pre-Wrathers place before the Rapture (the first 5 Seals) are just as arguably caused by God as the Trumpets are.  In fact the seals being opened by the Lamb rather then Angels makes them if anything more directly God's doing.

But I don't agree with that definition, it isn't found in Scripture.

The doctrine that The Church won't be here during the Eschatological Day of The Lord's Wrath doesn't mean God inherently isn't judging the nations during the Church Age.  For one thing there are passages definitely about what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD that called it God's Wrath.

In fact the accounts of the Trumpets specifically refer to Believers being here, unlike the Bowls.  No the 144 Thousand can't be interpreted as Post Rapture believers, they are described using clearly Church Specific terminology, like being the First Fruits.  In Paul's Epistles being Sealed is itself a Church specific Promise, tied to our Promise that The Holy Spirit won't leave us.

There is no evidence of believers on Earth during the Bowls, in fact Chapters 14 and 15 seem to have us in heaven already.  At best the first Bowl's account can be taken to imply there still exist people who didn't take the Mark.  But unlike most Christians I don't think only Believers will refuse The Mark.

Or if there are Saints during the Bowls period they can't be proven to be the Church specifically the same way the 144 Thousand are.  The people of God being told to come out of Babylon in the Wilderness is terrestrial Israel.

Biblically Trumpets are warnings.  I'm to lazy to go and make that argument right now, but google it I'm confident you'll find many have proven that.  The Trumpets are the warning signs we are supposed to be looking out for.

Also I will in the near future be making another post on how the removal of restraint refereed to in II Thessalonians 2 is the Fifth Trumpet in Revelation 9.

Looks like PreWrath is gonna be a relevant topic again

It had at least been off my radar since Chris White went inactive, he was the only PreWrath proponent I had any monicum of respect for, Alan Kurschner is a Calvanist and Trump supporter, the most evil ideological combination imaginable.

But he's back now and working specifically on a Pre-Wrath documentary with Kurschner.

For those who may have forgotten, what "Pre-Wrath" means in this context is a weird garbled chronology of Revelation that places The Rapture in the 6th Seal, it kind of shares several of the problems Pre-Trib and Post-Trib have.

I spent the early days of this Prophecy Blog saying a lot specifically against the logic of that model.  Back then I was still believing a number of things I've since changed my mind on, including my Soterology to an extent.

Chris White liked to call Mid-Trib a "defunct view", well part of my mission statement on this blog has been to make it very funct.  But I've gotten complacent and distracted and spent a lot of my recent time playing Devil's Advocate with Historicism.

My form of Mid-Trib isn't what you expect, I'm not "from my own pov Pre-Trib" just the opposite, we entered Great Tribulation when Stephen was Stoned and it ends by definition at the Parusia.  I also am not to invested in arguing it's the halfway point of a seven year time period (though I view that as likely) the point is it happens Between the Trumpets and Bowls in the chronology of the Book of Revelation.

The Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11 is the Last Trump of the Parusia, it will sound on Yom Teruah and is also typologically the fulfillment of the Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10 as well as Joel 2:15.

A lot of White's old stuff is still on on YouTube re-uploaded by others, some of which I agree with and some I don't.  But his video on his theory about The Manna being a specific type of Dessert Truffels is gone it seems, that was one of my favorites.

Update November 1st:  I've solved the Manna Video problem.
https://twitter.com/JaredMithrandir/status/1190301958076280832

Another thing I disagree with White on now is the Nephilim issue.
https://solascripturachristianliberty.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-nephilim-and-sons-of-god.html
https://solascripturachristianliberty.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-two-seed-line-theory.html

Yom Teruah is coming up

Nehemia Gordon did a study just recently called "How Yom Teruah became Rosh Hoshanna".  Which is informative.

He also talks about how the sounding of the Jubliee on Yom Kippur was not during the Jubilee year but to announce it was coming in the middle of the 49th Year, a fact I'd already heard, but not from a source as reliable as him.  I find that intriguing on a number of levels.

Overlap that with aspects of my Time of Jacob's Trouble post, and maybe I should leave my Mid-Trib variant view and consider founding a Mid Seventh Year Rapture view.  That would affiliate the Seventh Trumpet and Last Trump of The Rapture with the Jubliee Trumpet, making the end of Revelation 11, all of 12 and start of 13 about Yom Kippur, the rest of 13 and all of 14 and 15 between Yom Kippur and Tabernacles, and the Seven Bowls of God's Wrath poured out on the seven days of Tabernacles, with Haggai 2 supported the 7th Bowls being the 21st of Tishrei.  This would adjust my Fall Feasts hypothesis.

The Seventh Trumpet account mentions God's Temple in Heaven being opened and The Ark of His Covenant being seen.  That kinda fits Yom Kippur.

Then I would really have to change this blog's URL.

There are other factors I still have to consider.  There is already a Pre-Seventh year view, but they're under the false impression that Nehemia is refuting, that Tishrei can begin a year.

I watched awhile ago a Prophecy Club video called The Chronological Order of the Prophecies in The Jubilees.  There is much of this person's views that are clearly wrong, from his supporting the Britam view of the Lost Tribes, to trying to make the 120 years of Genesis 6 point to 6000 years.  But his evidence for a reckoning of the Jubilees that would have the next jubilee year starting in Spring of 2045 AD (with the Jubilee Trumpet then in fall of 2044) is compelling.  Here is a still I took regarding the Sabbatical Years.

The view of the 70 Weeks I've been favoring had the Decree of Artaxerxes in Nissan 454 BC putting the 70th week in 30-37 AD.  But many have, using much of the same evidence, argued for the Decree being Nissan of 455 BC, and a 70th Week that is 29-36 AD.  I need to look into that more, but if so that would make both the beginning and ending of the 70 weeks the start of Jubilee years in the above Jubilee model, which makes sense.

I've seen people argue for both 29 and 36 AD Crucifixion models.  For the latter that includes Nikos Kokkinos who's theories I may talk about more in a future post.  My personal bias remains 30 AD for the moment however.  But The Resurrection and Acts 2 Pentecost being Jubilee years has a certain symmetry to it.

This makes the latest Jubilee year to happen Spring 1996-Spring 1997.  And before that 1947-1948 which many see as Biblically significant.  Before that 1898-1899, and before that 1849-1850.

This model could place the beginning of the 21 year Time of Jacob's Trouble in Spring of 2024 AD.

Or maybe if someone could argue the above proposed Jubilee cycle is off by a year, to make my original 70s Weeks views match up to Jubilees, things would fit better.  Then it would be during a Jubilee year modern Israel was founded.

If I switched to a Mid 7th Year or mid 49th Year Rapture view.  How do I match up the time-frames?  The ministry of the Witnesses and consecration of the Rebuilt Temple would be around the Nissan that would start year 4 of the relevant Sabbatical cycle.  The 42 Months The Beast is allowed to continue would begin about 6 months later.  And the 1260 days The Woman is in the Wilderness would continue 3 years into The Millennium.  Why would that happen?  Who knows, perhaps I'll think of a reason later.

But I will still never accept a Non Chronological view of Revelation.

Middleism

Is a school of Eschatological thought I've recently been made aware of.

The description of it given to me is that they hold a Futurist view of Revelation and a Preterist view of Matthew 24.

So on Revelation we agree basically, that's good.

I've already argued against Preterist views of Matthew 24 in previous posts with the Preterism, 70 AD and Matthew 24 labels.

I assume they must also be Preterist on the other Olivte Discourse chapters, since Matthew's is literally the most difficult to make a Preterist interpretation work.  Much of Luke 21 I believe is about 70 AD.  At the same time Luke has a clear tie in to Revelation 11 with the part about Jerusalem being trodden under foot of The Gentiles.

I'm not sure what their views on 1 Thessalonians 4 and II Thessalonians 2 would be.  I have argued before they are essentially Paul's commentary on Matthew 24.

So the only things I should need to say specific to Middleism is how to prove with Scripture that Matthew 24 correlates to things in Revelation.  Since I've before criticized connecting the Four Horsemen to the "Non Signs" and gone back and forth on how if at all I feel the Matthew 24 Abomination of Desolation statement ties into Revelation 13.  I'm perhaps less able to do that then other Futurists.

But I do believe Matthew 24:14's statement about the Gospel being Preached to the whole world probably ties into Revelation 14.

Also Matthew 24 and Revelation are the only parts of Scripture that use the specific phrase "Great Tribulation" in Revelation 7 it's used of the multitude that is clearly the same multitude of martyrs seen in the Fifth Seal.  They all are Christian martyrs not just of a specific time period which is what puts me in conflict even with most Futurists.  As long as Christians are still being martyred (they are in most of the world, we just have it easy in the West) the Great Tribulation isn't over.

And I believe the Last Trumpet is the Seventh Trumpet.

And I believe the "Sign of the Son of Man" refers to either the Ark of the Covenant being seen in Heaven in Revelation 11 or to the signs of Revelation 12 which I believe will literally be seen in the Heavens before the Rapture.

And I believe the Son of Man coming on a Cloud is fulfilled in Revelation 14.

P.S.  Looking back on my earlier post about the Eschatological views of those who reject Paul as a False Prophet.   They were essentially a form of Middleism, believing Matthew 24 was a warning about Paul basically, but seemingly still treating Revelation as yet future.

Yom Teruah and Trumpets

I talked about the controversy of affiliating Yom Teruah with Trumpets in my initial Seventh Trumpet post.  I went back and forth on Psalm 81 more recently.

On one of the Karaite websites I follow I noticed that they object to affiliating Trumpets with Yom Teruah.  Even Karaites can be fallible.

The Hebrew word for neither kind of Trumpet is used in Leviticus 23:24 or Numbers 29, that is correct.  To me as I argued before whether it's the Shofar or the Silver Trumpet is irrelevant, Revelation's Trumpets I believe draw on both as does The Rapture Trumpet.

The Karaites like Chris White feel Teruah without a clear Trumpet reference refers to the people making noise, not a Trumpet.  Thing I've noticed though is that many Bible verses that use Teruah grammatically of the people shouting also reference Trumpets, if not in the same verse very near by.

Revelation 11 also has voices shouting and making Alarm in Heaven after the Seventh Trumpet sounds.

Jeremiah 4:19 and Zephaniah 1:16 both use Teruah in reference to the Shofar, with the KJV translating it Alarm.  Joshua 6 uses it while also talking about the Trumpets at the battle of Jericho.  Psalm 150, the last Psalm (and a short one), uses it in verse 5 in reference to Cymbals but Trumpets were mentioned earlier.  Also 2 Chronicles 13:12, 15:14 and Psalm 47:5.  And Amos 2:2 uses it and the Shofar.

2 Samuel 6 15 and 1 Chronicles 15:28 use it and also mention Trumpets while talking about when David brought The Ark to Jerusalem.  Revelation 11 tells use after the Seventh Trumpet is sounded that the Ark will be seen in the Temple in Heaven.

Some verses that use the word without mentioning Trumpets directly, are referring to "The Alarm of War". Numbers 10 and Joshua 6 both tell me we can infer the Alarm of War involves Trumpets.

Still, in The Torah this is the Holy Day we're told the least about.  It's not mentioned in Deuteronomy 16 or Ezekiel 45.  Yom Kippur is also absent from those chapters but it has Leviticus 16 dedicated to it.

Nehemiah 7:23-8:12 is all on this day, and it makes that day pretty important, though no Trumpets are referenced.

Before that however was Ezra 3, in verses 1-2 and 6-7 talking about the first year of the return from captivity (though some argue a time jump between verses 6 and 7).  Verses 8-9 jump to the Second Month of the Second year to talk about Zerubbabel and Jeshua starting their work.  I can't help but wonder if it can be conjectured while not clearly stated, that verse 10 has jumped forward to the anniversary of what was recorded before, that that day is supposed to be the day for consecrating the foundations during this period.

If so it's interesting that Ezra 3:10 refers to Trumpets, and says "after the ordinance of King David", and then verses 11 and 13 use Teruah 3 times with the KJV translating it Shout.

What can be interesting in terms of a Tishri Rapture in general is 2 Chronicles 31, talking about Hezekiah's reforms.  Verses 5 and 6 talks about offering made for The Temple at Hezekiah's command, including First Fruits offerings.  Then verse 7 says.

"In the third month they began to lay the foundation of the heaps, and finished them in the seventh month."

Early in the third month is when Pentecost happens, could this time frame be a type of the time frame of The Church?  Our foundation laid at Pentecost and finished in Tishri?  Because after this these offerings were gathered up and stored in the "chambers in the house of the LORD" in verses 10 and 11.

While I don't like to build doctrine on Extra Biblical Jewish Traditions, especially ones not attested before The Talmud in the 2nd Century.  The customs that went on during the first Century Second Temple period were an influence on the imagery of the New Testament.  I've already done a post on how Yom Teruah customs tie into the Two Witnesses.

Numbers 10 is about the Silver Trumpets sounding every Holy Day and New Moon.  What is interesting about Yom Teruah is it is the 7th New Moon of the year.

Possible Psalm 81 Retraction

In my main Seventh Trumpet post I had cited Psalm 81 as evidence for affiliating Yom Teruah with Trumpet sounding.  And my overall point in that post remains regardless of the relevance of this Psalm.  But it turns out there are possible translation issues with that verse.

I had cited the KJV rendering, as is usually my default, of verse 3.

Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

Yom Teruah is the only day that is both a New Moon and one of the Leviticus 23 Feast Days.

There are a few issues I have since discovered.  Which I found looking into why many modern Bibles replace "in the time appointed" with Full Moon.

1. The Hebrew doesn't use the usual Hebrew phrase for Appointed Time, Mowed, but rather Keceh, which the Strongs says means full or fullness.

2. The usual word for the "new" part of New Moon, Rosh, isn't the Hebrew in the verse.  Just the word Codesh which is affiliated with the Moon as well as with Months.  But not the standard Hebrew word for Moon which is Yerah.

3. The reference to "solem feast day" isn't Mowed either, but chag, which unlike other words translated Feast is assumed to specifically mean a feast or festival.  I've been told recently that only the pilgrimage days are feasts/festivals.  Two of those happen on or right after Full Moons, and none on a New Moon.

According to Numbers 10 the Silver Trumpets are sounded on all the Appointed Times.  The Hebrew here references the Shofar however.  It's possible the types of Trumpets are not meant to be as distinguished from others as some insist they should be.

Modern Bibles are clearly wrong to reference the New and Full Moon both, this is a single day being refereed to according to the grammar.  If it's a Solemn Feast Day that's Full Moon linked, it's either Passover of Tabernacles.

The word in question for "fullness" is only used once elsewhere in Scripture.  Proverbs 7:20.  There again the KJV renders it Appointed.

He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.

Other translations also say "full moon" instead of "day appointed' here.

It is strong number 3677, but it's root is 3680.  That word is taken as meaning things like cover, hide, conceal.  So that sounds more like the New Moon or a solar Eclipse (the eve of the Hebrew New Moon which is the crescent) were the Moon isn't visible at all.

Numbers 10 does say to sound the Silver Trumpets on all the Holy Days, but it's usually only Yom Teruah (or Yom Kippur but only for the Jubilee) specifically associated with Trumpets.  Especially the Shofar.

I still think my original view on this may be right, but that makes those who insist Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur are not Feasts mistaken.  Solomon's 14 day Festival went through Yom Kippur, which doesn't work if Yom Kippur is a Fast Day as tradition as convinced people.

The Septuagint agrees with the KJV on this verse, I have major issues with the Septuagint, but those come down to how it's used against the KJV, and the Masoretic text in general, here I'm simply wondering how to interpret what the Masoretic text says.  And I do think now the KJV and LXX are both mistaken in exactly how to express the verse, but possibly closer to the correct intent then the Full Moon view.

Thing is this would be the only verse in The Bible making the Full Moon significant, (with only one other mentioning it at all, based on the same word).  Certain Feast Days happen to occur near the Full Moon, but it's how long after the New Moon they are counted.  And saying the 15th of each month is the Full Moon is a mistake based on a wrong understanding of the Biblical New Moon.  The Full Moon is actually the 14th more often then not.

I always find it significant when God does the opposite of The Pagans.  The Full Moon is constantly significant to Pagans, but The Bible seems to be more focused on New Moons.

This PDF argued in-favor of the Full Moon interpretation.  But in doing so reveals how that interpretation has it's roots in the opinions of the Pharasitic Rabbis of the first and second centuries, who went on to influence Jerome.  I give Jerome credit for being the first "Church Father" to use Hebrew rather then the Septuagint for the Old Testament, but he should have sought his advice from Kariates rather then Rabbis.

And that PDF's argument against the "covering" interpretation seems overly technical for a word that is used only twice.

My hunch now is that this refers to when the Moon comes out of hiding, the Biblical New Moon.

This is an issue I'm gonna to dig deeper on.

On a side note, tonight is the Blood Moon (but in Kariate Biblical reckoning it's not Tabernacles after all, Tabernacles starts tomorrow night).  Here is Chris White's refutation of that again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v--qn0ZyZi0

He could have added that it's barely visible in Israel, this last one being the only one visible there at all.

I'm gonna put Rob Skiba's recent longer video here too, though he says plenty I don't agree with (like on the Flat Earth).

Witnesses and The Seventh Trumpet

This is copied from a Pre-Trib Website arguing against linking the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11 to the Rapture's Last Trumpet of Yom Teruah.

Yom Teruah is the only festival that no man knows when exactly it will occur. This is due to the fact that it begins on the new moon. The new moon was sanctified when two witnesses see the new moon and attest to it before the Sanhedrin in the Temple. 

This sanctification could happen during either of two days, depending on when the witnesses come. Since no one knew when the witnesses would come, no one knew when the Feast of Trumpets would start. 

On the 30th of each month, the members of the High Court assembled in a courtyard in Jerusalem, where they waited to receive the testimony of two reliable witnesses. They then sanctified the new moon. The new moon is very difficult to see on the first day because it can be seen only about sunset, close to the sun, when the sun is traveling north. So, looking for a very slim faint crescent moon, which is very close to the sun, is a very difficult thing to do. If the moon’s crescent was not seen on the 30th day, the new moon was automatically celebrated on the 31st day. 

 They leave out another important detail however.

After the witnesses are interviewed, to confirm that they are indeed two agreeing witnesses, the High Priest was informed.  Then The High Priest stood at the top of the Temple Mount (because the witnesses brought this news to the bottom of the mount) and tells the two witnesses to "Come up" and they ascend the Temple Mount to the High Priest, and then they sound the Last Trump.

This site's argument against tying this to the Seventh Trumpet was.

We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year.

 It's not an argument, people are just under the assumption Yom Teruah and the 7th Trumpet can't be the same cause we are conditioned to think the Fall Feast begin/end years even though Biblically they mark the middle.  So we're not prepared to see them in the middle of Revelation unless you're a post-tirbber who garbles the chronology.

This site also talks about how Jewish thought also has a First Trumpet, and the First Trumpet is sounded on Pentecost.

Well I've argued on this Blog extensively why I see the Sixth Seal and Revelation 7 as the second fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32.  And the sealing of the 144,000 is the latter rain, the final great outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  So the First Trumpet being sounded right after that fits perfectly.

This site assumes the Great Trumpet and Last Trumpet can't be the same simply because Rabbinic Tradition distinguishes them I guess.

I believe when The Witnesses are Resurrected will be when the sliver of the New Moon of Tishri is seen.  The World will witnesses their rising, they'll preach some more, The Gospel will spread and then God will call them up to Heaven and they will Ascend to Heaven.

Then the people of Jerusalem (who we know from the beginning of chapter 11 are mostly Gentiles at this time) will Believe and Repent and Praise God.  That will be when the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.  Then the Seventh Trumpet is sounded.

Jesus said in Luke 21 that Jerusalem will be "Trodden under foot of the Gentiles till the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled".  And that is when he will return.

Zephaniah says The Day of The LORD's Wrath is The Day of The Trumpet

Zephaniah 1:14-18

The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.  Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

The word translated "alarm" in verse 16 is Teruah, the same word used to define the First of Tishri in Leviticus 23.  The Feast of Trumpets.

The Grape Harvest in Israel is usually finished before Tabernacles

That is a pretty strong clue that Revelation 14 takes place in the first half of Tishri.

Further supporting The Seventh Trumpet being on The Feast of Trumpets, the first of Tishri.

What did Paul mean by revealing a Mystery?

Pre-Tribbers will use that Paul said he was revealing a Mystery when he spoke of The Rapture to try and refute the notion that Jesus could possibly have been talking about it in Matthew 24.  Of course they think Jesus was referring to The Rapture when it suits them, for verses that sound like imminence to them.

First of all Mystery or Mysterion in Greek means what was before hidden, not necessarily something that was never there at all.

The passage in question is not I Thessalonians 4, but 1 Corinthians 15.  1 Corinthians 15 does not actually describe the Rapture (us being Caught Up) at all.  It's about The Resurrection.  Also 1 Thessalonians was written before either Corinthian Epistle.

The Resurrection was not a mystery, that was well known in both Jewish and Christian teachings.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

There are technically two, but they're both linked, ideas here that are at least not directly stated in any prior Old or New Testament passages on The Resurrection, including I Thessalonians.

1. That when The Resurrection of Church Age Believers happens, those Believers alive at that time will be Resurrected without needing to die first.

2. That the Resurrection we are promised is more then just being raised again to how we are now, we'll be changed incorruptible, restored to Adam and Eve's Pre-Fall state.

Both are conclusions one could deduce would be the case from earlier information, but this is the clearest teaching on those matters.

We know the Resurrection being discussed there is the one that happens at Jesus Coming because Paul mentions that elsewhere in the chapter.  And because the timing of The Trump is also used in I Thessalonians 4.

Matthew 24 does not mention The Resurrection.  Pre-Tribbers will also use that fact against it possibly being about The Rapture.  Meanwhile 1 Corinthians 15 is indisputably a Rapture relevant passage when it doesn't actually mention The Rapture.

No Rapture passage covers everything that happens at that event.  Including I Thessalonians 4 which for starters doesn't cover what I just discussed about 1 Corinthians 15.

Matthew 24 does indisputably cover what the word Rapture refers to.  No one is gathered to Him when he comes for Israel, He goes where they already are.

I feel it can be firmly demonstrated that 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2 were essentially a commentary on Matthew 24.  Overall Matthew 24 has more in common with 1 Thessalonians 4 then 1 Corinthians 15 does.

Meanwhile The Rapture is in The Old Testament, in passages like Isaiah 26 and Joel 2:15-16.

In Romans 16:25-26 he seems to refer to the Gospel he preaches as something that was a concealed secret until his own time.  Yet earlier in that book he used The Torah to prove his Gospel (justification by Faith Alone), he uses Genesis 15 to prove it in both Romans and Galatians.

Wrath and the Seventh Trumpet

Pre-Wrathers and many others with mistaken views need to claim that the Trumpets are all God's Wrath insist that in Revelation 11 when the Elders and the Four Cherubim say "and thy wrath is come".  That the Greek should be translated "has come" or "has already come".

My argument however is it simply doesn't matter how past tense the grammar is.  Everything here is in reference only to the Seventh Trumpet and what happens immediately after it's sounded.  Nothing said here was true before the Seventh Trumpet.

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

How much of that was already happening during the earlier Trumpets? Wrath is the only one anyone would even try to argue for.

Trumpets Biblically are warnings, the Last Trumpet is the Last Warning, that's when the Parousia happens and the Day of The LORD begins.

The fact is, Wrath has already come at the Seventh Trumpet, but it would be inaccurate to say that before the Seventh Trumpet.

That the Bowls are described as "finishing" or "completing" God's Wrath is seen as evidence God's Wrath begins sooner.  Fine, it begins with the 7th Trumpet and is finished by the Bowls.

Does Revelation start over in Chapter 12?

Some people have Revelation completely non-chronological.  But among those who choose only one place to see it as Rebooting, the by far most popular place is the start of Revelation 12.

"We are back at the birth of Christ" they will say.  I no longer agree with that assumption, but even if John is seeing Signs that represent some already past events.  I believe these Signs will one day be seen in the Heavens, not just by John but by everyone.  Luke 21:25 foretells "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars".

Matthew and Mark has Jesus refer to "The Sign of The Son of Man" being seen in the Heavens.  I have two theories on what that correlates to in Revelation. One I've said before is the Ark being seen in the Heavenly Temple in Revelation 11.  But another option is perhaps the Signs John sees in Revelation 12, the Birth of the Son of Man/Seed of The Woman.

Again, both the Chapter and Verse divisions are not in the original text. If you read Revelation from the sounding of the 7th Trumpet on till when The Dragon is cast down without letting the man made divisions effect your perception, I don't think it's possible to fail to see they're all one continuous sequence of events.  I will provide an easy way to do that at the end of this post.

Revelation 12:1 in the Greek text begins with Kai, Kai is translated in the KJV "and there" but in fact "and then" would be more accurate here, the word is translated "then" elsewhere in the KJV often.  It's also the exact same word that begins 12:3.  That word is how many verses in Revelation begin, including the last to chapter 11 and all of them in chapter 12 and most in 12.

Some defending the idea of Revelation starting over and showing us the same events from a "different angle" mention that we have Four Gospels, and that Chronicles repeats much of the history from Samuel and Kings.

Those are different books.  And when we do see different events from different angles within the same book on the subject of prophecy they're defined as distinct separate visions, usually given at different times.  Like the many visions Daniel has (or interprets for others).  And I indeed do believe we see most of what's in Revelation from different angles in other Prophetic books.

Revelation however is one continuous vision.  John was taken out of the Earth to the Heavenly Throne Room and is walked through everything that will happen step by step.  Revelation ceases to be confusing when people just accept that and interpret other Bible Prophecies chronology based on where John explicitly identifies them in Revelation.  Including that when the Son of Man comes on a cloud is in Revelation 14.

Even if some start over were the case, we're clearly caught up to the midway point and the Abomination of Desolation when The Woman flees as synchronization with Matthew 24 shows.  Her time in the wilderness is clearly the second half not the first.  It's generally the desire to justify putting the Trumpets in the second half that comes from this specific start over theory.  I've dealt elsewhere with why the Trumpets and Bowls being concurrent doesn't work.

Revelation 11:14-12:12

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, saying, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
And then a great wonder appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.  And then appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

The Trumpets and Bowls

Those who want to insist the Trumpets and Bowls are the same events from different angles, make a strong argument when they point out certain parallels between the 2nd, 3rd 5th, 6th and 7th of each.

Well they have no parallel for the 1st, they're not the same at all.  And the 4th is the opposite effect.  For 2 and 3 it's clear the Trumpets are only partial while the Bowls are complete.  And for 5 and 6, the parallels are small superficial details of larger complex situations.

To a certain extend I don't think these parallels are coincidences.  As I said before Trumpets are warnings, I think each Trumpet is a warning of each Bowl.  And the Seven Angles may well be the same Angels connected to each.  This is a conjecture, but I think maybe each Trumpet is 42 months before each Bowl.

Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs

This may well be one of this blogs most rehashed subjects, since Pre-Wrath is the Rapture view I kind of feel most compelled to refute (Pre-Trib and Post-Tribs problems are well known).  And this issue is the foundation of the Pre-Wrath argument.  While I've addressed it before it's always while dealing with other things too.  So here I shall lay things out.

Matthew 24:27-24 refers to the following Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs.

1. Lightning
2. Earthquake
3. Sun being darkened
4. Moon does not giver her light
5. Stars falling from Heaven to the Earth

3 and 4 should perhaps be grouped together as the same sign.  But why I need to separate them here will become apparent.

Pre-Wrathers correctly say 2, 3, 5 correspond to the 6th Seal events in Revelation 6.  But they ignore 1.

They insist 4 is the same as the Moon being like Blood.  It's funny because Pre-Wrathers are often the most hostile to the Blood Moon hype prompted by Mark Blitz, pointing out the very solid reasons Blood Moon references can't be referring to Lunar eclipses.  Yet will at the same time use the science behind Lunar eclipses to suggest the Moon being darkened and looking Blood Red can be the same thing.

What is said in Matthew 24:29 is the moon gives no light.  Color=Light, that's how it works.  If anything I feel like what Jesus is describing (if it should be tied to any possible natural astronomical phenomenon at all), is a Total Solar Eclipse.  The Sun is Darkened from the Earth's view because it's Blocked by the Moon, and the Moon receives no Sunlight to reflect.

While I agree a Lunar Eclipse does not explain the 6th Seal/Joel/Acts 2 lunar event.  I do feel it will likely happen during a Full Moon, that would make the reddening effect most dramatic.  That I have other independent reasons for seeing this as happening on Passover is convenient.

It is known that Volcanic Eruptions sometimes cause the Moon to look Red also.  Which verifies the Joel/Acts connection, because other Joel terminology is also seen as alluding to volcanoes.

The 7th Seal in Revelation 11 includes lightning, thunder, hail and an earthquake in the very last verse.

The Chapter Divisions and even Verse divisions are NOT in the original text.  Revelation 12 begins with the word "and" Kai (kahee);  Conjunction, Strong #: 2532.  Which is translated and, also, even, indeed, likewise and so on.  It clearly means continuing from the prior events, or simultaneous with them.  The Revelation 12 events are clearly continuing the 7th Trumpet account, which is part of my argument against the way Post-Trib garbles the Chronology of Revelation.

12:4 describes stars falling to The Earth.  That is officially 3 out of 5, just as many as Pre-Wrathers can legitimately get for the 6th Seal.  Also the early part of Revelation 12 is the one place the word Harpazo is used in Revelation.

The Sun and Moon being Darkened could have in mind the 4th or 5th Trumpet events.  Or it could be the Darkening of the Sun and Moon is implied simply by events happening in Virgo being visible in the Heavens at a time when the Sun is in Virgo, which usually can't happen.

Meanwhile Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 does NOT refer to a Seal of a Scroll being Opened.  But he does refer to a Trumpet being sounded.  Which unlike these Cosmic and Terrestrial Signs is in both of Paul's main Rapture Passages.  And Possibly a 3rd in Hebrews.

Joel 2 begins with the 6th Trumpet, then describes the Sun and Moon being Darkened.  Then describes a Trumpet being sounded and The Rapture in verses 15-16.

When is the Seventh Trumpet?

I've talked extensively about why I hold a Seventh Trumpet view of the Rapture.  But now I want to address those who see the Rapture and the Parusia in the same parts of Revelation I do, but because they're Post-Trib insist that happens at the end, after numerous things Revelation doesn't describe till latter.

I actually don't want to retread the general arguments about the way Post-Tribbers garble the chronology of Revelation.  I've spoken on them some already.  And others supporting different rapture views do it a lot.

I want to address simply one detail in the Seventh Trumpet account itself they see as insisting it can only be placed at the very end of everything that happens.

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

In Revelation 11:15.  They insist this must mean it's sounded right when The Millennium begins.

What's amusing is these are Premillennial  Futurists making the same basic error Preterists and Amillennials make about various things Jesus said in The Gospels, or the End of Revelation when he says he's coming quickly.

John 12:13 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

No Futurist thinks that actually happened at that time in it's apparent face value assumption.  Satan remains the Prince of This World right now.

While I disagree with a lot of things taught at Nomadic Ministry (like his form of Dual Covenant theology, which influences how he sees certain things in this same chapter).  I will quote what he has to say on this detail.

We start out after the trumpet it sounded and a loud voice proclaims that the world has become the kingdom of our Messiah. It is at this point that God takes over the scene and really starts hammering down the judgment that those who are truly left behind deserve. Before this, I believe, the devil was still being given his dominion to work chaos and discord throughout the world. After this trumpet is sounded God takes the forefront and controls the story from here on out.

 So this one statement certainly does not prove the Post-Trib view.

Post-Tribbers have many points they view as a start over point.  There are no Chapter or Verse divisions in the original text, as I've pointed out elsewhere, the Greek word rendered "and" at the beginning of Revelation 12 demands that that vision is still part of the 7th Trumpet event.  And reading on in Chapter 12 it's clear then that 1260 days at least are still left when the 7th Trumpet is sounded.

In The Twinkling of An Eye

The Secret Rapture is a key concept related to the Pre-Trib view.  Not necessarily required I guess but every Pre-Tirbber I know believes it.

The concept is that when The Rapture happens, all the World will see (if they notice anything at all) is a bunch of people disappearing.  The Pre-Tirb Rapture based fiction usually never has them even being able to put the pieces together that they all followed the same Faith.

The basis comes from only one of the classic Rapture passages. 1 Corinthians 15:52.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The idiom is of speed not visibility.   But the point is that the phrase essentially means "blink and you'll miss it".

This passage lacks most aspects of what happens at The Rapture.  Including what the word "Rapture" itself refers to, us being Caught Up/Gathered.  Nor does it have the Parusia, Jesus coming on The Clouds.

It's only about three things.  1. The Last Trump, 2. The Resurrection of believers, 3, The still living Saved being change/perfected into our Resurrected states without dieing first.

That is all that is happening at that speed.  Once that happens, then Jesus comes to Gather us, and elsewhere The Bible is always clear The World sees that.  In Matthew 24, I Thessalonians 4, and Revelation 14.

Chuck Missler and Mark Easton have done a lot of material about Dimensions and the Science of The Resurrection.  About how Jesus in the Resurrection was in more then just our four dimensions. And I recommenced their work on that even though I'm more strictly Young Earth Creationist then they are.

But Missler makes a statement that I'm sure he has this Secret Rapture idea in mind with.  Where he says Jesus was only "Seen by loving eyes and touched by loving hands".  By which I'm sure he means only Saved individuals.

My problem with that is this flies in the face of the efforts of all these other Christians seeking to show how Historically proven the Resurrection is.  If 100% of the eye witnesses were people who already supported Jesus.  Paul spoke in his Epistles of there being many, many witnesses to the Resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:3-8

 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Besides simply the large number, I notice the inclusion of The Lord's half-brother James.   His siblings were not believers yet at any time they appear during his ministry.  The typical conclusion from this verse is that James became a believer after seeing the Risen Jesus.  And we certainly know Paul wasn't saved yet when he saw him.

More refuteing of Pre-Tribulational Imminence

I dealt with the main reasons I'm not Pre-Trib. I want to address some other Pre-Trib arguments here. Mostly I felt like making this in response to some arguments from Dave Hunt in a radio debate I saw him have with a "Pre-Wrath" supporter (who sounded more like he was Post-Trib). When I wrote the first draft of this I didn't know Dave Hunt had passed away. So I apologize if this sounds harsh at all, he is a man I respect.

Like a lot of Pre-Tirbbers he obsesses over the Parables in Matthew 24 and 25. Insisting they demonstrate it's not just the World but the Church caught off guard. Problem is you have to be careful building doctrine on parables. And I can't help but think the simple fact of both Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath being proven wrong not very long into the 70th week may cause a lot of believers who've always taken the Mid-Trib view the least seriously to just accept the Post-Trib arguments, which sadly could lend themselves to becoming enemies of Israel, since Post-Trib is virtually inseparable from Replacement Theology.

But I actually don't think the point of those parables is technically an issue of the Rapture's timing at all. They're about attitudes. Attitudes that even Pre-Tribbers can take, I know most don't but they can, if they engage in date setting, or just see that the Temple Reconstruction hasn't even started yet as assuring them they have time. What I'd say to any Mid-Trib, Post-Trib or Pre-Wrath believers temped to use their beliefs about the timing of The Rapture as an excuse to take such an attitude. Is that you could Die at any moment, and will be with Jesus then.

Like a Thief in The Night

Pre-Tribbers obsess over this phrase. Those who aren't Pre-Trib insist it's the World taken by surprise. Pre-Tribbers respond with "Jesus wasn't talking to the world" then reference back to those Parables again.

The point isn't who he was talking to but what he was talking about.

I Thessalonians 5 is one of the places that uses this phrase of the Second Coming, and a favorite one. They kind of ignore it's usage in Revelation 16:15 where it's said as the Bowls of God's wrath are being poured out. Which Post-Tirbbers think helps them, but the KJV uses Present tense in Revelation 16:15, he is already Coming.

But back to I Thessalonians 5.

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Verse 4 clearly says WE are not to be taken as a Thief. But Hunt just writes this off when it's pointed out to him and references other passages I already addressed rather then letting Paul elaborate on what he said.

Let's talk about the origin of this Phrase. because while the New Testament uses it in various places, it is in fact secular in origin. It was coined in reference to how Cyrus sneakily captured Sardis. Jesus reminds us of it's origin by using it in his message to the Sardis Church in Revelation 3:3.

However not everyone in Sardis was taken by Surprise, the spies and collaborators he no doubt had in the city that helped him uncover this vulnerability were not surprised. Which is why I think Jesus may want us to be thinking of Joshua and the Siege of Jericho, and the two spies who got Rachab saved. We as part of The Church are citizens of God's Kingdom but are dwelling in Satan's. We're his spies, as are The Two Witnesses. And Rachab could be viewed as a type of he Church.

What about the idiom of as a Woman who travails? Does she have no warning signs? No, she has a pretty good estimate of when to expect her child to be born. If she's taken by surprise at all it's because of there being so many false alarms.

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety" is a specific phrase Dave Hunt loves to dwell on.

First thing is, I don't see how that could accurately describe Christ's return if he returns today? The world isn't remotely saying that now. But his fixation is an assumption that this phrase can't work if any of the Seal or Trumpet Judgments are already going on. (He'd also include the Bowls, but I don't disagree that those are post Rapture).

I believe this refers to after the Abomination of Desolation. When the Antichrist is trying to convince the world he's ushered in a new Golden Age of peace and tranquility, a Pax Romana. if he's using a false Judeo-Christian religious premise then he'll probably be saying the Millennium/Messianic era has begun and convince people somehow that the first half of the 70th week was really the last. Post Post-Tribbers and Pre-Wrathers garble the chronology of Revelation in ways that would lend help to that.

But perhaps he won't be claiming anything Biblical, perhaps he'll be saying it's the "Age of Aquarius" or some other BS.

Point is either way every eschabological tradition agrees that things get worse before they get better. As Harvey Dent said "The Night is darkest just before the Dawn". And Lucifer is the Dawn bringer according to Albert Pike.

Now, allow me to explain my view. I'm Mid-Trib, though probably not your standard form of it, I prefer the label Mid-Seventieth Week. I've never even read or listened to a Mid-Trib teacher. I've come to this conclusion listening to Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath people and taking note of both what I find right and what I find wrong in their teachings while studying The Word for myself with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I believe all 7 Seals and the first 6 Trumpets all happen before the Abomination of Desolation. So I agree that the people being martyred for not taking he mark are not part of The Church. I also believe Joel 2:1-14 is the Sixth Trumpet and Joel 2:15 the Seventh Trumpet.

I believe the Ministry of the Two Witnesses is the first half of the 70th Week, because Malachi said Elijah would return BEFORE the Great and terrible Day of The LORD. During which time they will smite the Earth with plagues and withhold rainfall, and turn water to blood, and call fire down form heaven.

I believe The Beast kills the Two Witnesses the same day he does the Abomination of Desolation and causes the Sacrifice and Oblation to cease. Probably soon after.

They then lie in the streets of Jerusalem for Three and a Half days. During which time the people of the Earth celebrate their death.

Revelation 11:10 "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. "

I've considered the possibility that this might be during Chanukah, the 3rd day of which is the traditional day for gift giving. And the 25th of Kislev is the anniversary of both the Maccabees victory over Antiochus Epiphanes but also of his Desolation in the first place. Allowing this date too fit two conflicting views of what the heresy for the coming Abomination might look like. But I now preferring seeing the 7th Trumept as the First of Tishri.  Either way I wouldn't be dogmatic on it.

The point is that this roughly 84 hour period is the time period I believe Paul was describing. Everyone thinks the bad times are over and they are now in eternal peace and safety. Then the Two Witnesses Resurrect and Ascend, and the Seventh Trumpet sounds, and the Sign of the Son of Man, the Ark of his Covenant (The Cross I believe) is seen in the Heavens. This is when the Rapture occurs for the Time of the Dead is at hand, to give rewards to the Saints. And then God's Wrath is poured out. Revelation 14 also describes the Son of Man coming on the Clouds, an the 144,000 who sound like their in their Resurrected state.

The 70 weeks of Daniel

Dave Hunt and other Pre-Tirbbers feel the Church Age must exactly match the gap between the 69th and 70th week.

Problem is, the 69th week points to the Triumphal Entry and Crucifixion, which both occurred in Nisan. Not Pentecost which was 49 days after the Resurrection.

Study Daniel 9 closely and you'll see that the 70 weeks revolves around the Temple. So I believe the moment the 69th week ended was when the Veil was torn at the moment Jesus died. The Talmud says that for 40 years before the Temple's destruction the crimson thread never turned white. I've written elsewhere on why I date the Crucifixion to 30 A.D.

The Second Temple was effectively dead for 40 years before it actually ceased to stand. It lost it's divine anointing when Jesus became the True Sin Offering. So I believe the 70th week is initiated by the consecration of the Third Temple. Revelation 11 confirms for me it's standing during the Ministry of the Two Witnesses, refuting the view that it's only under construction during the first half. The outer court being given to the Gentiles I believe refers to the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, because I support the Al-Kas fountain view of The Temple's location.

It's always confused me how Daniel 9's last verse doesn't tell us really anything about what happens when the 70th week ends, just what marks the midst of it. We know Daniel was told his vision was sealed up. Perhaps Gabriel's vision for Daniel here was meant to end about when the Rapture will happen.