There is no Wrath before the Seventh Trumpet.

Alan Kurshner supports his position that the Eschatological Wrath of God is more then just the Seven Bowls by saying the word "Wrath" doesn't have to be used for the concept of "Wrath" to be in mind.

I do not disagree with that on it's own, after all the word "Parousia" isn't in Revelation at all but I strongly feel Revelation tells us when that happens by describing it's characteristics.

However my strong belief that we are not in Wrath during the first half of the book is based on more then just the rarity of the word itself popping up in the first 11 chapters.  It's based on specifically what we are told when Wrath is explicitly mentioned.

After the Seventh Trumpet is sounded Revelation 11:18 says that His Wrath is Come, Wrath starting is an effect of which the Seventh Trumpet is a cause.  The only time the word Wrath is used before the Seventh Trumpet is sounded is during the Sixth Seal events of Revelation chapter 6, but it's not any heavenly voice saying it there, it's the Kings of The Earth, not a credible source.  Again see my post on the Non Signs.

A common explanation of the difference between Tribulation and Wrath is that "Tribulation is what Man does and Wrath is what God does".  This definition is often promoted by Pre and Post Tirbbers, people who don't even consider such a distinction relevant to the timing of The Rapture.

Even if I partially agreed with that I would still say the events associated with the Seals and first 6 Trumpets are not directly God's doing the same way the Bowls are.  After all events Pre-Wrathers place before the Rapture (the first 5 Seals) are just as arguably caused by God as the Trumpets are.  In fact the seals being opened by the Lamb rather then Angels makes them if anything more directly God's doing.

But I don't agree with that definition, it isn't found in Scripture.

The doctrine that The Church won't be here during the Eschatological Day of The Lord's Wrath doesn't mean God inherently isn't judging the nations during the Church Age.  For one thing there are passages definitely about what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD that called it God's Wrath.

In fact the accounts of the Trumpets specifically refer to Believers being here, unlike the Bowls.  No the 144 Thousand can't be interpreted as Post Rapture believers, they are described using clearly Church Specific terminology, like being the First Fruits.  In Paul's Epistles being Sealed is itself a Church specific Promise, tied to our Promise that The Holy Spirit won't leave us.

There is no evidence of believers on Earth during the Bowls, in fact Chapters 14 and 15 seem to have us in heaven already.  At best the first Bowl's account can be taken to imply there still exist people who didn't take the Mark.  But unlike most Christians I don't think only Believers will refuse The Mark.

Or if there are Saints during the Bowls period they can't be proven to be the Church specifically the same way the 144 Thousand are.  The people of God being told to come out of Babylon in the Wilderness is terrestrial Israel.

Biblically Trumpets are warnings.  I'm to lazy to go and make that argument right now, but google it I'm confident you'll find many have proven that.  The Trumpets are the warning signs we are supposed to be looking out for.

Also I will in the near future be making another post on how the removal of restraint refereed to in II Thessalonians 2 is the Fifth Trumpet in Revelation 9.

The "Pre-Wrath" position needs a new name.

Yes they do believe The Rapture happens before God's Wrath, but so do Pre-Tribbers and 100% of the many variations of Mid-Trib including my own.  The only Pre-Millennial Futurists who aren't Pre-Wrath are the Post-Tribbers, (even they may sometimes try to deny it, but only they have The Church still on Earth during Revelation 16).

But right now the designation of "Pre-Wrath" has been hijacked by a very peculiar view created by a Marvin Rosenthal and currently mainly promoted online by Chris White and Alan Kurshner who recently announced a joint movie project.

They are Pre-Wrath but that's not actually the defining characteristic of their peculiar position.  Calling it a "Sixth Seal Rapture" view would be way more apt, though some forms of Post-Trib as well as the position the Pastor I do not like to name promoted in his movie will also connect it to the Sixth Seal.

Their view is that it happens at the Sixth Seal and then in theory everything after that in Revelation is post Rapture.  So they alone can uniquely be called the Sixth Seal Rapture view.  There is a problem with their claim to being chronological but this post I don't want to be about if their view's right or not, I'll discus that in a future post after I create a certain Spongebob Meme.

If any view deserves to be defined by their Pre-Wrathness, it's my variation of Mid-Trib, I believe it happens exactly when Heavenly voices in Revelation say now Wrath has come.  I will argue in a future post agaisnt Alan Kurshner's logic for making the Trumpets part of the Wrath.

But I have no particular desire to call my view Pre-Wrath because when the Wrath happens is not my main reason for the position I hold on the timing of the Rapture, it just happens to fit.

Now I know many forms of Mid-Trib are from their own POV either Pre-Trib or Post-Trib, but that isn't the same as this because everyone knows what Pre-Trib and Post-Trib without qualification means.  For the record I'm a Post-Tribber from my own POV based on Matthew 24.

However lots of people are confused on what exactly calling yourself "Pre-Wrath" means.  In the comments section of the YouTube video I linked to above a commentor replied to me that Pre-Wrath is Mid-Trib, totally ignorant that the makers of that video love calling Mid-Trib a "defunct view".

So my plea to White and Kurshner is start calling yourselves the Sixth Seal Rapture view.

P.S.  Another thing amusing to me is that their PreWrath film is mainly directed agaisnt Pre-Trib.  Debunking Pre-Trib is nothing new.  They have convinced me they have a fairly different approach, but still, everyone knows the problems Pre-Trib has.  Those of us promoting positions that can be labeled as "compromise" positions really need to put more leg work into destroying Post-Trib.

The Idealist View and Revelation 16

The Idealist View of Revelation is a view that in contrast to Futurism, Preterism or Historicism says Revelation isn't really about any specific sequence of events that were yet future when the book was written but grander Spiritual Truths of the Biblical Meta Narrative.

I am a Pre-Millenial Futurist, but the Idealist view is one I can view as also true. Like how our typological Christological interpretations of Old Testament events doesn't mean we don't believe they actually happened as described.  So the future events of Revelation can have typological significance looking back just as the Hebrew Bible has looking forward.  Peter Hiett's Revelation Sermons are primarily advocating an idealist view and his is probably the best version of it.

And personally I think the most interesting part of the Idealist view is Revelation 16 as a sort of 5th account of The Crucifixion.  The idea that Revelation is describing the Wrath the World deserves but that Jesus took upon himself.

I shall be going out of chronological sequence as I discus this view.

It starts with how the word for "Plagues" is a Greek word that also means wounds.  It's never directly indisputably used of the Wounds that Jesus received, but it is used of the same kinds of wounds in places like Luke 10:30 and Acts 16:23.

The big smoking gun of the argument is Revelation 16:17 where after the Seventh Vial is poured out a voice says "It Is Done" and then a Great Earthquake happens.  Now in the Greek this "It Is Done" does not seem to be exactly the same phrase as "It Is Finished" Jesus said on The Cross right before that Earthquake.  But Jesus wouldn't have been speaking in Greek, so this can easily be a different Greek translation.

So in the first Vial the sores received by those who take the mark could correlate to Jesus sores from when He was scourged.

The two vials turning water into blood could be about the Blood of Jesus that was shed.  Moses turned water into blood, Jesus turned Water into Wine and then at the Last Supper said a cup of Wine was His Blood.  And when the spear pierced His side Blood and Water came out.

The fourth Vial about the Sun getting really Hot could have to do with Jesus being on The Cross at High Noon.  The fifth Vial then caused Darkness which definitely happened while Jesus was on The Cross.

So the Sixth Vial is the difficult one to make work.  The Euphrates River being dried up when interpreted symbolically is clearly about contact between West and East, the Euphrates at this time was basically the border between Rome and Parthia, and Biblically it was the Eastern Border of what God gave to Abraham.

In Antiquities of The Jews Josephus sometimes winds up going out of sequence.  In Book 18 the account of the Crucifixion happens in chapter 3.  Chapter 4 begins the account of how Pilate's Governorship ended and then how Tiberius died before Pilate got back to Rome.  But when while talking about acts of Vitellius clearly jumps back to when Tiberius was still alive for some dealings he had with Parthia.  In section 5.

When Tiberius had heard of these things, he desired to have a league of friendship made between him and Artabanus; and when, upon this invitation, he received the proposal kindly, Artabanus and Vitellius went to Euphrates, and as a bridge was laid over the river, they each of them came with their guards about them, and met one another on the midst of the bridge. And when they had agreed upon the terms of peace Herod, the tetrarch erected a rich tent on the midst of the passage, and made them a feast there. 

That is interesting.  Also later after his time as governor of Syria was over Vitellius actually made himself a sort of High Priest of the Imperial Cult of Caligula, making him a possible Type of The False Prophet.

Meggidon is possibly linked to the Crucifixion by Zechariah 12.

Revelation 14:14-20, The Parusia and the Wrath of God.

Post-Tribbers often tend to see The Second Coming and The Rapture in the same parts of Revelation that I do, and then some more.  And that is why their view is dependent on messing around with the Chronology of the book.

That includes this part of Revelation 14.  The Son of Man riding on a Cloud, is a clear identifying characteristic of The Parusia in both Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4.  Plus people use the Kingdom Parables to justify associating Harvest imagery with The Rapture.

So naturally I've seen Post-Tribbers say they specifically believe this event is the same as or happens at the same time as the Revelation 19 event.

Now the core premise of this Blog has become that The Book of Revelation should be interpreted Chronologically.  I've done numerous posts on that subject.  But even if I abandoned that, even if I recanted every prior post on the Revelation Chronology tag.  Even if I accepted a claim that the earlier parts of this same Chapter didn't happen right before or at the same time as this part.  I would still have to say it's absurd to place this event after The Bowls of God's Wrath are poured out.

Verse 19 says "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.".  This is clearly the beginning of the Bowls of Wrath narrative, this is the origin of what fills those bowls.  Not matter how literally or symbolically you interpret that imagery this chronological fact about it is clear.

So even if one doesn't believe the whole book is Chronological, there is still no denying that 14:14-16:21 are a continuous narrative, a narrative about The Wrath of God.  Just read all that remembering that our modern chapter and verse divisions weren't originally there, and it should be self evident.

So as far as I'm concerned you simply can't agree that this is part of the Parusia/Rapture, yet continue to insist that the Parusia/Rapture doesn't happen till after all the Bowls have been poured out.

Now from there we can dispute how long it takes the seven bowls to be poured out, and then how much time there is between the last bowl and Revelation 19.    I have myself become increasingly flexible on that.

I've decided the point of my Midway-Point Rapture view is not it being the literal exact halfway point on a timeline, but that it's between the Trumpets and the Bowls.

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls.

I didn't grow up being taught any particular view of the End Times, I'm one of those who never knew what the Rapture (or really Secret Rapture) was until the Left Behind books became a pop culture phenomenon.

In my first memories of reading the Book of Revelation, I was admittedly skimming it over and not digesting most of the details.  But while much I didn't understand, it's chronology never confused me.  It seemed clearly like John was being shown a sequence of events, mostly in Heaven but to varying degrees correlating to events on Earth.

I never bought Pre-Trib.  For a long time, until not long before I created  this blog, I was essentially Post-Trib.  But what caused me to become alienated from mainstream Post-Trib was how they scrambled the Chronology of Revelation.  But at least they're not like Pre-Wrath saying their view is Chronological when it clearly is not.

But my personal perspective aside, there are clear textual reasons why the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are clearly threes sequences that follow each other and can't in any way be happening at the same time.

Revelation 8 begins with the Seventh Seal being opened and then clearly depicts the Seven Trumpets being given to their angels as a result of the Seventh Seal being opened.

Revelation 11:15-18 begins to describe what happens when the Seventh Trumpet is sounded.  And one statement is "Thy Wrath is Come".  In context what the grammar and meanings of these words is saying in both Greek and King James English is NOW his Wrath is Come at the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet, Biblically trumpets are warnings and this was the last warning.

Pre-Tribbers and Pre-Wrathers (and also Post-Tribbers) want to insist we were already in God's Wrath at least in the Trumpets because "obviously that's God's Wrath".  But that isn't sound doctrine.  Releasing demonic entities in Revelation 9 isn't God's Wrath.

The Bowls are defined as God's Wrath, so not even one could have been poured out before the Seventh Trumpet.

The only time Wrath is mentioned before the Seventh Trumpet is sounded is in Chapter 6, after the Sixth Seal is opened.  And it's not the narrative voice, or God, or anyone in Heaven, or any Prophet saying it.  It was said by the kings and other powerful men of the Earth.  They think this is God's Wrath.

In Anime analysis videos much is made of how things in early episodes are meant to take on a new meaning when re-watched.  Well this part of Revelation chapter 6 I think has a similar effect.  That these worldly people think they are already in God's Wrath is hilarious when you know what's coming, they have no idea.

And I have another post on that it's perfectly fine to view some plagues as happening more then once.

Israel's hiding place in The Wilderness during The Day of Yahuah

I still believe the doctrine that Israel will have a Hiding Place in the Wilderness during the three and a half years between The Rapture and the start of the Millennium.

The Woman of Revelation 12 is Israel, and verses 6 and 14 refer to her hiding in the Wilderness in a place prepared by God.

Matthew 14 also records Jesus warning to flee to the Wilderness when you see The Abomination of Desolation.

What I have come to disagree with is the popular view that this hiding place is in the land anciently ruled by Edom but today part of Jordan, Biblically identified with Bozrah, though for some reason popularly identified with the distinct Petra.

Daniel 11:41 is taken as assurance that Edom, Moab and at least part of Ammon (all in modern Jordan) will escape The Antichrist.  But I've already shown that Prophecy was about Caesar Augustus, and refers to those lands being ruled by the Nabatean kingdom of Aretas.  And even if it does have a second fulfillment, this passage still doesn't directly connect itself to this doctrine, and that lack of control is not guaranteed to be permanent, Rome did eventually conquer the Nabatean Kingdom under Trajan, the same Caesar who conquered Babylon for Rome interestingly.

The main basis for placing their hiding place in Bozrah is Micah 2:12.

I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

Thing is Bozrah is also a Hebrew term that means Sheepfold, and in context it looks like that is what's being said here, not a place name.  There are no near by references to Edom or other Edomite place names to verify this being the Edomite city.  And to further complicate things Jeremiah 48:24 refers to a Bozrah in Moab.

Amos 1:12 and Isaiah 34 refers to Bozrah specifically and Edom as a whole as being subject to God's Wrath during the Day of Warth.  Now I think that is arguably about Eschatological Edom being Rome/The West, but I think the geographical lands of Ancient Edom could play a role in that, Edom returning to their roots in a sense, not unlike Mystery Babylon returning to Shinar in Zechariah 5.

The final passage cited to prove this theory is Isaiah 63 where Jesus, described similarly to how he is in Revelation 19, is coming from Edom and Bozrah.  This passage also doesn't directly connect itself to the Wilderness hiding place doctrine but I think it's more likely to be relevant then Daniel.

It could be Jesus is traveling through Edom/Bozrah and it's neither the starting or ending point.  However it certainly is not the ending point, so this theory is dependent on saying he goes where Israel is hiding first and then marches to Armageddon.

I however think based on Genesis 28:17 that when Revelation 19:11 says Heaven Opened, that opening is in Beth-El.  Destroying The Armies of The Beast is the first thing Jesus will do, then he'll go to Israel to lead them back to Jerusalem.

So I think the reference to Edom and Bozrah in Isaiah 63 is the same as in Isaiah 34 and other Prophecies about Edom's final Judgment, like Obadiah, of Ezekiel 35-36.

So where do I think Israel will be protected?

I have argued before for seeing the Day of Yahuah as being a typological repeat of much of the history of The Exodus.  In that context I think perhaps this will be the same place they wandered in The Wilderness for 40 years in the days of Moses.  In fact I think the reference to her being fed there in 12:6 possibly alludes to a return of the Manna miracle.  Also Exodus 19:4 uses Eagles' Wings terminology, as does Isaiah 40:31.

We do also see a pattern throughout The Bible of individuals returning to this same location.  David spent some time in Paran which is also a place Israel spent some of the 40 year wandering.  Elijah spent some time at Mt Sinai.  We're never told where Jesus 40 days in the Wilderness was.  Paul in Galatians 1:17 says he was in Arabia for some of the time between his conversion and the beginning of his ministry.  Paul places Sinai in Arabia in Galatians 4:24-25.

That of course leads to debates about where those locations are.

I believe Mt Sinai is in Midian, possibly Jabal El Lawz, a view first popularized in The West by Ron Wyatt but later verified by the more reliable and trustworthy Bob Cornuke.

I've expressed in the past a willingness to believe certain Muslim claims that most modern Western Christians are adverse to.  Doesn't change my complete rejection of the Theology, Christolgoy and Soterology of Islam, or that Muhammad is not eligible to be a Biblical Prophet.  These issues come up in any post I give the Ishmael label to.

The Mt Sinai debate ties into that.  If Sinai is in what we today call the Sinai Peninsula then the Desert of Paran can't be in Arabia either, since Paran is also one of the locations mentioned during the 40 year wandering.

We're used to thinking of the total geography of the 40 year wandering as pretty small because The West since the time of Constantine has been forced to limit it to the Sinai Peninsula.  But once you place Mt Sinai in Arabia, then things can open up.

I want to point out that the Islamic view of Paran is not that it's just Mecca, they view the Wilderness of Paran as the entire Hijaz, that's pretty much all of Saudi Arabia that borders the Red Sea.  But there is also a more specific Mt Paran.

Eusebius and Jerome were Pre-Islamic non Arab Christians who placed Paran in Arabia Desertia, which is the Roman name for Saudi Arabia basically, south of Nabatea (Jordan mostly) and north of Arabia Felix (Yemen).

There are Samaritan sources like some texts of their Pentateuch and their apocryphal Book of Moses that seem to agree with identifying Paran with al-Hijaz and linking Ishmael to Mecca.  However a claim that Abraham built the Kaaba remains incompatible with Genesis.

Immanuel Velikvosky when arguing for his view of the Amalekites (which I agree with, with some qualifiers) in Ages in Chaos saw identifying Paran with al-Hijaz as supporting his theory based on his use of Arab Historians.

I'm even willing to consider valid the identification of the Baca of Psalm 84:6 with Bakkah an ancient name for Mecca.  Though that is pretty difficult to prove.

In context it does sound like a Desert or Wilderness location, I'm even wondering now if Psalm 84 could be directly applicable to Israel's End Times wildness protection.

Psalm 84 being a Davdic Psalm is taken as meaning it's probably a location linked to a place David was during his exile.  Well 1 Samuel 25:1 says David went to Paran after Samuel died.

The usage of Psalm 82 by Islamic apologists remains wrong in that Baca is not the destination of this Pilgrimage.  They basically try to argue Zion just means Sacred Land and thus can mean the Kaaba.  Zion only came to mean that after David placed his Tabernacle on Mt Zion, this being a Daivdic Psalm shows David's Zion is what he meant.  While he was in Paran he longed to return to Zion.

If you take the size of New Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22, and place it's center at Jerusalem or Beth-El, it's total land would include Mecca and Medina, and one or two of it's southern gates would be just south of them in Arabia.  So you could have people pilgrimage through those gates and past Mecca towards Zion.

So basically I think Arabia, not Jordan is where Israel will be protected during the last 1260 days.

Or maybe this and the Petra view don't conflict, since another suggested location for Mt Sinai is Jabel al-Madhbah near Petra.  Petra isn't named as such in the Bible being a Greek name and the city as we know it from the Greco-Roman period.  It was the Nabatean capital making it actually Ishmaelite territory just outside of Edom.   But again during the NT era the Nabateans ruled Edom, Moab and much of Amon.  But being connected to Ishmael's oldest son makes it logical to be near Paran.

It is named in The Bible as Cela/Sela/Selah, often translated Rock. Possibly first being given that name in 1 Samuel 23:25-28.  And having being given another name in 2 Kings 14:7.  It's refereed to in Obadiah 3 and Jeremiah 49:16.  Showing at times Edom did have it.  But it's linked to Kedar in Isaiah 42:11.  And it identified as being in The Wilderness in Isaiah 16:1.

It is used of the Rock Moses smote the second time, when smiting it wasn't what he was supposed to do, in Numbers 20, and mentioned in Psalm 78:16.  And it's used in Number 24:21 about the Kenites, the clan of the Father in-law of Moses.  And in Deuteronomy 32:13.  It's also possibly being mentioned in Judges 1:36.

Zephaniah says The Day of The LORD's Wrath is The Day of The Trumpet

Zephaniah 1:14-18

The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.  Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

The word translated "alarm" in verse 16 is Teruah, the same word used to define the First of Tishri in Leviticus 23.  The Feast of Trumpets.

Wrath and the Seventh Trumpet

Pre-Wrathers and many others with mistaken views need to claim that the Trumpets are all God's Wrath insist that in Revelation 11 when the Elders and the Four Cherubim say "and thy wrath is come".  That the Greek should be translated "has come" or "has already come".

My argument however is it simply doesn't matter how past tense the grammar is.  Everything here is in reference only to the Seventh Trumpet and what happens immediately after it's sounded.  Nothing said here was true before the Seventh Trumpet.

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

How much of that was already happening during the earlier Trumpets? Wrath is the only one anyone would even try to argue for.

Trumpets Biblically are warnings, the Last Trumpet is the Last Warning, that's when the Parousia happens and the Day of The LORD begins.

The fact is, Wrath has already come at the Seventh Trumpet, but it would be inaccurate to say that before the Seventh Trumpet.

That the Bowls are described as "finishing" or "completing" God's Wrath is seen as evidence God's Wrath begins sooner.  Fine, it begins with the 7th Trumpet and is finished by the Bowls.

Wrath Word Concept Fallacy

So I point out to Pre-Wrathers and Pre-Tribbers that Revelation doesn't mention Wrath until after the 7th Trumpet except in one passage where fallible human beings say they think it's already come, after the 6th Seal.

But Alan Kurschner goes on about what he calls a "Word-Concept fallacy" and says that concepts are in Scriptures that don't mention the word.  And yes that is true many times.  But when you're building doctrine you need a higher standard then just that the concept is vaguely there.  Those other passages can demonstrate a doctrine but they don't build it.

And there are plenty of times when The Bible specifically avoiding saying something means something.  My view on God's Wrath is not about when the word isn't used but when it is used.  Only with the Bowls is it clearly linked to the entirety of that group of judgments.

The thing is, not even every passage with the word "Wrath" is about the concept of an Eschatological time period in which God pours out his Wrath on an unbelieving world after The Bride of Christ has been removed from it..

In fact even tough I do see the timing of The Rapture as before The Bowls.  I must reluctantly admit that the Post-Trib objection to how Pre-Tirbbers read 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is valid.  In that verse Wrath is contrasted with Salvation, not being Raptured.  Yes the Rapture is discussed around that same area, but that doesn't prove what he's referring to.  Comparing it to John 3:36 and also Romans 5:9. proves Wrath means Damnation in those kinds of verses.

The Lake of Fire and Hell is not "Eternal separation from God" as Liberals want to water it down to. (Revelation 14:10, Psalm 139:8)  It is God's Eternal Wrath.  The Fire that Burns you is the Fire that emanates from God's presence (Isaiah 30:33, II Thessalonians 1:8-9).

God also poured out his Wrath on Jesus on The Cross, that's the Cup Jesus spoke of in Gethsemane. And that's a conclusion I come to without needing the word to be used.

In Romans 1:18 Paul spoke about the Romans of that time being subject to God's Wrath, hence him delivering them unto certain Sins.

Ephesians 5:6 and Colossians 3:6 show that Christians when we're in Disobedience can be Subject to God's Wrath.  Salvation cannot be lost but there are ramifications when a believer Sins.  We are always God's Children but a Father can still be angry with his Children.  1 John 5 clearly warns of even a Sin unto Death for Believers, like what happened to Saul.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 refers to God's Wrath having already come upon the unbelieving Gentiles.

 And I'm also not one of those futurists who wants to remove 70 AD from Bible Prophecy all together.  Luke's Gospel especially has Jesus and John The Baptist saying things that clearly apply to 70 AD, not just in the Olivite discourse.  And Luke 3:7 and 21:23 refer to what happened in 70 AD as God's Wrath against Israel.

So let me explain why just saying what happens in Revelation 8 and 9 is obviously God's Wrath is stupid. And has nothing to do with a lack of the word Wrath.

The first 4 Trumpets in Chapter 8 are about Natural Disasters.  Jesus specifically tells us not to consider such things signs, for such things always happen.

Revelation 9 is about things Demonic creatures do.  God allowing these creatures to be released from the Abyss could be called his Wrath in a sense.  But when he pours out his Wrath is only what God does himself.  So to me saying Revelation 9 is God's Wrath is outright blasphemy.

Biblically Trumpets are warnings.  In the days of Joshua the Trumpets were sounded for 6 days before Jericho fell on the 7th.  Ezekiel 33 further makes that clear.

The Bowls are distinct from The Trumpets for a reason.  The entirety of the accounts of the Seals and Trumpets used the word Wrath 3 times.  The third after all 7 Trumpets are sounded.  But this word is linked to what happens with the Bowls for the entirety of their role.

At the end of Chapter 14 which clearly describes The Parousia "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.".

The Bowls alone are defined by The Text as synonymous with God's Wrath.  Therefore a sound Biblical hermeneutic says only they should be refereed to as synonymous with God's Wrath.

We are not Appointed to Wrath

1 Thessalonians 5:9.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

It may surprise many people that I didn't even cover this in my main post against Post-Trib. The real difference between Post-Trib and the other major views is how we view the nature of The Church and Israel, and how that overlaps with how we view the sequence of The Resurrection.  But this distinction about Wrath is often cited as a favorite Proof Text on the issue.

To me the Dispensational view of this verse is fairly well backed by Mid-SeventiethWeek arguments.  And the two Pre- views weaken the usefulness of this by misunderstanding just how much of Revelation is the Wrath of God.

By viewing when we're taken out as Between the Trumpets and Bowls, and using parallels between the 7th Trumpet and Revelation 14 to classic Rapture passages to back that up.  The argument that this verse reveals something about the Timing of The Rapture makes sense.  But I can't see a Post-Tribber being impressed by the way Pre-Wrathers presents their chronology, and certainly not by Pre-Tribbers who don't place the Rapture in Revelation at all.

Thing is however, I cannot in all honestly consider the Post-Trib answers to this verse (of which there are two I can think of) completely invalid.

1. It doesn't mean we're not on Earth during the Pouring out of Wrath, but simply that we're protected from the Wrath.

Indeed the first Bowl specifically says it only affects those who take the Mark.  But no such qualifier exists with the other Bowls, and I can't see believers being unaffected by them without explicit divine intervention that Revelation 16 doesn't mention for them.  I believe the First Bowl is directly linked to the mark to show it happens soon after The mark is introduced.

But my interpretation of that is hardly doctrinal proof against that possible Post-Trib view.

2. It's not eschatological at all, Wrath here simply means Hell or The Lake of Fire, God's eternal Anger against Sinners.

On the one hand, being in 1 Thessalonians 5 gives a context linked to The Rapture and End Times.

But on the other, some uses of the word Wrath in non eschatological contexts (even of the more Specific Wrath of God) do support that view.  Particularly John 3:36  "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.".  And they also point out the fuller context of the verse in 1 Thessalonians 5 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ".

So even though eschatology is in mind a little earlier.  That Post-Trib interpretation of that verse is doctrinally solid.

So those are the only two options I can think of they have.  Unless they break the traditional definition of Post-Trib in some way.

There are actually two completely different Greek words translated Wrath in the New Testament.  Orge (Strong# 3709) and Thumos (Strong# 2372).  Unfortunately my study of them hasn't really revealed any compelling common denominators in how they're used to distinguish between them mystically, at least not one to help the Dispensational case against Post-Trib.  Both are used in Revelation, and both are used with "of God".

Orge is the one used in both 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (every occurrence of Wrath in Thessalonians actually) and John 3:36.  As well as Romans 2:5's reference to the "Day of Wrath".

In Revelation.

 Thumos is the one used every-time you see Wrath in chapter 14-16:1, both when referring to God's Wrath and the "Wrath of her Whoredom" referring to the Whore of Babylon, which also occurs in 18:3.  It's also Thumos used of The Devil's Wrath in 12:12

Revelation 16:19 used both for the "fierceness of his wrath" against Babylon.

But in both Revelation 6 and 11, in the wake of both the Sixth Seal and Seventh Trumpet, Ogre is the word for Wrath used.

I'm afraid I reluctantly (since it doesn't suit my agenda) have to admit we can't solidly build Prophetic doctrine on the references to Wrath.

Now that the "Day of the LORD" refers specifically to the Second Half of Daniel's 70th Week is probably still a more solid argument.  And it's possible link to the "Day of Wrath", which would be a more solid chronological reference to Wrath.

Zephaniah 1:15-18 refers to "the day of the LORD'S wrath".  And 1 Thessalonian 5 also earlier refers to the Day of The Lord.    Both of the only times the NT speaks of a "Day of Wrath" in Romans 2:5 and Revelation 6:17 the Greek word is Ogre.

The Pre-Wrath camp might feel it backs up their view, the Sixth Seal being the only time Revelation mention the Day of Wrath.  But the fact remains that you can't build doctrine on what's said by fallible humans.  Interestingly the book of Job which I point to to make that point also has two references to the "Day of Wrath", in 20:28 and 21:30.  When Joel discuses the Sixth Seal event in 2:28-32 he clearly says this is BEFORE the "Day of he LORD'", not during it or when it starts, but before.

The First Bowl of Gods Wrath and The Mark of The Beast

Revelation 16:2

"And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

The Pre-Wrath view is that the 70th Week is already over when this happens, we're already in the mysterious extra month of Daniel 12.

I feel the link the first Bowl has to the Mark supports my view that the Seven Bowls span the second half of the 70th week.  I believe this happens only a matter of months at the very most after the Mark is instituted.

I think it's some sort of physical side effect of taking The Mark itself.

Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath

This post won't be an in depth study.  I've already explained all the core reasons I'm Mid-Trib, and not any other Position.  And even touched a little on Futurism over Preterism, and Premillennial over Amillennial.

So future posts I make on The Rapture will mostly be minor anecdotes, responses to recent things said by people, which will direct reading to earlier for more details.  My future in depth studies posted here will be on other Eschatological issues, which may or may not also touch on The Rapture.

What I want to say briefly today is about Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath.  To me the terms should be synonymous, because to me Wrath is the Second half of the 70th Week.  And the Seven Bowls of God's Wrath.  Nothing more or less.

But instead the Pre-Wrath position defines itself as being predicated on a garbling of the chronology of Revelation.  My Sixth Seal post primarily dismantles their logic, the foundation of which is a flawed understanding of how the Sixth Seal relates to Matthew 24.  And my Seventh Trumpet study and the very first post I made here shows how Revelation 9 renders the Pre-Wrath position impossible.

In a certain sense though Pre-Wrathers remains the most similar to me.  They don't deny the Uniqueness of The Church like Post-Trib does.  But don't insist we'll never see The Antichrist like Pre-Trib does.  Since fellow Mid-Trib teachers are rare now, I spend a lot of time listening to Pre-Wrath teachers like Chris White.

That's all I felt like saying today.  If you haven't read my earlier studies yet please do so.  And don't be afraid to point out to me any grammatical mistakes so I correct them.  And feel free to leave comments disagreeing with me, I want an open robust debate.

The Seventh and Last Trumpet

 First I want to address those who refute the Seventh Trumpet view by claiming the "Last Trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) being called the "Trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) means it can't be sounded by an Angel.  Everything in Heaven is of God, and the Seventh Trumpet being clearly separated from the rest in it's sounding makes it unique.  In Revelation 15 and 16 the Seven bowls of Gods Wrath are poured out by Angels, even though we all know the Wrath in question is Of God, the Trumpets are the same.

A debate exists over whether or not the "Last Trump" that signals the Rapture in Thessalonians, and Corinthians and Matthew 24 is the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11 or the Last Trumpet sounded on the Feast of Trumpets.

Chris White argues it's neither and that we should look at the Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10.

It is true that the Biblical Hebrew text does not explicitly link Trumpets to the First of Tishri feast in Leviticus 23:24, that's an assumption we make based on Trumpets being added in translation, and extra Biblical traditions about that day. Chris White however seems to assume the Trumpets affiliated with the First of Tishri are the Ram's Horns. But a book I have on Hebrew customs (by Ethan Allen) says Silver Trumpets and Shofar were both sounded on that day.

Numbers 10:10 does say the Silver Trumpets are to be sounded "Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months". Now "solemn days" in the Hebrew texts refers to the "appointed times' or High Holy Days, meaning all of them outlined in Leviticus 23. And the beginning of each month would also include the First of Tishri.

The single word translated "blowing of trumpets" in Leviticus 23:24 is T@ruw`ah (ter-oo-aw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 8643. Is used in Numbers 10:5&6 where it is translated "Alarm".
"When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys."
In verse 7 it's a different word translated alarm, but one that is probably the root of the final syllable of Taruwah.

At any rate I'd agree we can't build solid doctrine on any extra Biblical assumptions about Rosh Hoshana. But this one may have more of a Biblical basis then he realized. The First of Tishri is the one day there is double the reason to sound those Trumpets. And the only thing we are told about it in Leviticus is a key word also used in Numbers 10 about blowing Trumpets.

Actually Psalm 81 I feel kind of refutes the claim that there is no Biblical basis for linking Trumpets to the First of Tishri.  In verse 3 Asaph wrote "Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day."  The only day that is both a New Moon and one of the Leviticus 23 ordained major Feast Days is the First of Tishri.  Here though Shofar is used rather then the word for the Silver Trumpets.

I don't think we should distinguish between the Rams Horns and Silver Trumpets in terms of how they may symbolically point to Heavenly/Eschatology Trumpets. Whether it's the verses indisputably about The Rapture or the Seven Trumpets in Revelation. Earthly Trumpets needed to be made from separate materials for Earthly reasons, but the Heavenly Trumpets are probably not really made from any Earthly substance at all. Silver is Levitcully a symbol of Redemption, and Ram's Horns are taken from Sacrificial offerings.  So symbolically both point to Jesus as our Sin Offering, who's voice is sometimes described as "like a Trumpet".  And the New Testament only uses one Greek word for Trumpet.

Hosea 5:8 Poetically uses both words for Trumpet as if their synonyms. But the KJV renders one of them Cornet to avoid sounding redundant.

He's also wrong that the Trumpet themes through out the Prophets are always the Silver Trumpets.  Hosea 5:8 is the only time the Silver Trumpets are mentioend in the Porphetic Books.  And Psalm 98 the only time they're in the Psalms.  Both have the Shofar also in the same verse.  Every other Trumpet reference in the Psalms or Prophets it is the Shofar.  And Plenty seem linked to The Rapture/Day of The LORD.

I believe that the references to the Trumpets in Revelation are meant to draw on all the earlier Trumpet themes of Scripture. Both the Silver and the Rams Horns. Because I view Revelation as explaining the rest of Scripture, and unveiling all things that were before mysteries. Meaning if the Trumpet that signals the Rapture isn't in Revelation, then Revelation has arguably failed to serve part of it's purpose.

Post-Tirbbers often agree with seeing the Rapture in the same Revelation passages Mid-Tirbbers do, but make it compatible with their view by garbling the chronology of Revelation in ways that are ridiculous.  Those would also agree with my on the Seventh Trumpet being sounded on he First of Tishri, I would point out that there is no Biblical basis for God post Exodus ever returning to Tishri rather then Nisan years.

Of the passages outside Revelation viewed as being the most indisputably about The Rapture, a Trumpet sounding is the most nearly universal detail.  Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52, and I feel the most solid Old Testament reference in Joel.  Yet Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath people refuse to look for a Trumpet in their placement in Revelation, and Pre-Wrathers feel their position is proved by Rapture signs only used in the Olivite Discourse yet never by Paul.

Both Post-Tribbers and Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath supporters love to refute the Pre-Trib argument that Matthew 24 isn't referring to the same coming/gathering as Paul by pointing out all the parallels between that account and Paul's from Thessalonians and Corinthians. There are at least 20. But what many either miss or ignore is that a number of those same parallels apply to the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11.

We have a Trumpet sounding followed by great voices in Heaven. The use of the word "Archangel" in Corinthians is a different from then when Jude uses it of Michael. It ends with an "n" making it technically plural in Greek.

We have The Four Cherubim declaring God's Wrath is come, in a way that makes clear it hadn't come before the 7th Trumpet.

We have talk about it now being the "Time of the Dead" and time to judge and reward the saints. That sounds like the Bema Judgment to me.

I also think "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament" could correlate to "The sign of the Son of Man" being seen in the Heavens. One can argue the Ark of the New Testament is the Cross on which The Lamb's Blood was shed for our Sins.

There is lighting and another Earthquake. The Seventh Trumpet account lacks reference to the Sun or Moon being darkened. But this could be left over effect for the Fourth Trumpet, and/or when the Smoke form the Abyss covered The Earth following the Fifth.

Also there were no Chapter breaks originally, to Revelation 12's beginning is still the Seventh Trumpet.  The word Harpatzo is used, and stars fall from heaven.  And possibly a layer of meaning here is astronomical clues pointing to the New Moon of Tishri.

Then after the rest of 12 and 14 continue laying out the Mid-Trib drama, we come to 14.

The 144 Thousand are seen on Mt. Zion, and it sounds to me like they're in their Resurrected state, with talk of being "Redeemed from the Earth" and being the "First Fruits". I do not allegorize the 144 Thousand, they're a specific group of believer. But I do think their part of the Church and Resurrected already here. A better argument certainly then the weak one that the Multitude in Chapter 7 are Resurrected already.

And latter we have "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man" in verse 14. And with it's Harvest imagery.

And further reading shows the pouring out of God's Wrath is still only about to happen.

And then supplemental to what follows the Seventh Trumpet, is what proceeds it. It seems to immediately follow the Resurrection and Rapture of the Two Witnesses. Again, I do not allegorize the Witnesses, they're Enoch and Elijah to me. But I do think it's possible their Rapture could have a connection to ours. Their being taken out of the Earth alive before are each seen as types of The Rapture after all.

I think there is more then enough connection between the Seventh Trumpet and the Last Trump to see them as connected.

Revelation 9:20 shows the Image of the Beast hasn't been set up yet. Because the Idols these people are being judged for worshiping "neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:". So the life like Image of the beast isn't here yet.

Actually, Revelation 9 is a major Death nail for the Pre-Wrath position. No damned individual should be able to Ascend out of the Bottomless Pit before it is unlocked. But the Pre-Wrath position needs this to be well after the Abomination of Desolation, which can't happen until after The Beast ascends out of the Bottomless Pit. We're told he's ascended out of it already when he kills The Two Witnesses.

I believe Revelation 9 is the Removal of The Restrainer.  As I explained in this blog's first post.

Pre-Wrath people usually insist the ministry of The Witnesses is the second half of the 70th week. But Malachi clearly says Elijah returns BEFORE the great and terrible Day of the LORD.

I've also decided I see Joel 2:1 as the Sixth Trumpet, what happens after it sounds has some clear parallels to what happens in Revelation 9:13 and up, with a bizarre Supernatural army of Fiery Horsemen.

And so Joel 2:15 I see as the Seventh Trumpet, where the people are Gathered and the Groom collects his Bride. Between them in verse 10 the Sun and Moon are described as being darkened.

I did a Google search on the subject, and it seems no one else has noticed this yet, Which surprises me. Many I've seen, like in J.R. Church's book on the Minor Prophets, link Joel Chapter 2 to the Fifth Trumpet, though to me that doesn't work quite as well. I don't like Allegorizeing the Locust of Revelation 9 into an Army, when the next Judgment is explicitly defined as an Army. To me the creatures let out of the Abyss are Demons taking temporary physical forms, like the ones they sometimes take from TransYughothian Ceremonial Magick rituals. That's the significance of The Smoke.

The Invading Army in Joel 2 is usually either taken as the Gog and Magog Invasion, or Armageddon. But to me it seems to be placed before The Rapture, which doesn't fit the latter. And I've become convinced that the former happens after the Millennium.

It seems people identifying as Pre-Wrath think a lot still happens between the Abomination of Desolation and the Rapture. Enough to account for months or even years. Basically, to them the Persecution of The Church the Matthew 24 Olivite Discourse describes happening before the Abomination of Desolation, and as correlating to the Fifth Seal, actually happens after the Abomination.

Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 clears places the "Falling Away" before the Abomination of Desolation.  This falling Away is seen by Pre-Wrather as correlating to the Matthew 24 persecution.

There are two coming end times Persecutions I believe. As I explain in the "Great Tribulation" post.

I believe the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet is on the Feast of Trumpets.  So it's not either/or between those two options.

The Sixth Seal

Revelation 6:12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

First of all, I want to explain that I don't believe most of the other Prophecies people see as the same as the Sixth Seal actually are.

People like to talk about a frequent Prophetic pattern of "Signs in the sun, moon and stars", which may or may not also feature an Earthquake. But they're all actually pretty specific on those signs, and their not all the same. And the Sixth Seal is NOT the only time in Revelation there are signs involving the sun, moon and stars, and certainly not the only Earthquake.

Only two other Bible passages refer to the Moon becoming like Blood. Joel 2:31, and Acts 2 where Peter Quotes that part of Joel. I'll get to the significance of that latter.

Isaiah 13:10 says that neither the sun, moon or stars will give their light. People act like this is effectively the same, but not only are they not, they're mutually exclusive. If the Moon has a visible color it is giving light. Joel has two verses interestingly that do describe that kind of event, one in a context I believe places it between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets. The others in Joel chapter 3 along with Isaiah 13 I think refers to the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath, when the Kingdom of The Beast is darkened.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13's account of The Rapture speak also of both the Sun and Moon not giving light (no Blood Moon). Here stars also fall, but it's still distinct.  The event is also linked to a Trumpet, not to a Seal.  The Sixth Seal doesn't mention lightening either.

These aren't referring to Lunar and Solar Eclipses, since they're happening simultaneously. Dr. Robert Thieme tells us of the eruption on August 27th 1883, there were Earthquakes and tidal waves. And also that because of the volcanic ash the sun was blotted out and the moon looked red.

I love how Pre-Wraht people tend to argue against the idea of a Lunar Eclipse being described here.  but will also use the concept of what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying that the Moon turning like Blood can be the same as it being Darkened.

Even if it is valid to see the Cosmic Signs aspect of the Olivtie Discourse as having some connection to the Sixth Seal.  It's clearly to me only that the Sixth Seal begins those kinds of signs.  Pre-Wrath people want to dogmatically build doctrine on placing The Rapture in the Sixth Seal based on it having a small subsets of the Rapture related signs, signs that are not in Paul's Rapture accounts at all.  The far more universal defining features (Trumpet, Voices in Heaven, Son of Man coming on a Cloud, Resurrection of The Death, Harvest imagery)  Are not in the Sixth Seal, their Revelation parallels are in chapters 11-14.

I believe firmly that Joel 2:28-32 and the Sixth Seal are the same.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Now no Earthquake is mentioned in Joel. But Peter in quoting this in reference to his time clearly sees the basis for the Sun being Darkened in the Darkness that happened when Jesus was on The Cross, and there was an Earthquake there. Clearly this event in Peter's day was only a lesser near fulfillment. Revelation 6 sees a worldwide Earthquake, that rearranges Terrestrial geography like something from The Silmarillion or the Akallabêth.

Remember that the Chapter divisions are not part of the original text. So Revelation commentaries, and weeks long Bible Studies always separate the Sixth Seal from Revelation 7 and the sealing of the 144,000. But when we remember to look at this in the Context of Joel and Acts, it seems to me that this is in fact still the same event, even if some time has passed.

The concept of believers being Sealed is discussed outside Revelation in Paule's Epistles. In 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30. All of them sound to me like their about conditions unique to The Church, that don't apply to Pre or Post Church Age believers. So I reject allegorizeing the 144,000, I believe their specific people living at a specific time, and that specific number, or each of the 12 Tribes. Not simply representing the entire Church. But I do believe their part of The Church. They're also described in chapter 14 in terms that sound a lot like The Bride of Christ to me.

To the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view this must be after The Church age has ended. To the Pre-Wrath view this is right where it ends. But I see it far more likely that this is still during the Church Age, but near it's end. A sort of Culmination or Climax. One Last Great Outpouring of The Holy Spirit, greater even then the original at the Pentecost of 30 A.D. (Maybe this will also be linked to the Passover-Pentacost season). So the Church Age can end like how it started. I reject the common Baptist view that the Spiritual Gifts were only until the Canon was complete, but I'm not strictly a Pentecostal since my Soterolgoy is Baptist. And I'm certainly not Charismatic.

Some have decided to claim all of the 144,000 will be male, because their described as men. Greek and Hebrew did NOT use any word for both of the meanings we use "man" for. The 144,000 are Anthropos, which means Man as in Mankind, the Human Race. Typically the Greek stand in for Adam, but also for Enos. So not only can they include women, but Joel saying "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" tells us that clearly many (maybe exactly half) will be. I would not rule out Transgender and Intersex individuals either.

So like the first outpouring this finale one will be initially upon The House of Israel. 12,000 of each of the 12 Tribes.

Because it follows the Fifth Seal, which shows the Martyrs of all persecutions of The Church, who we see again in chapter 7, but in the context of the finale great persecution. I believe this happens after we've already entered the major World Wide persecution of Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:9-14. So the usage of the term "Great Tribulation" tells us nothing about timing, as I have another study on.

There will be a falling away as Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 when this happens, because in The West we'll be unprepared for Persecution. Some of those who recant and leave may be people who weren't really saved but just nominal Christians, in the Church only because they were raised in it, or some other convenient reason. But I don't believe it's impossible for truly Saved people to fall away. They could lose their inheritance because of this but not their Salvation. I recommend Chuck Missler's explanation of Hebrews 6.

But regardless of those problems, The Church has also historically grown under persecution. So while at first we react badly, in time I believe we will grow from it. So I think possibly most or even all of these 144,000 will be individuals Saved after this persecution started. So the witness of those Martyrs faithful unto death won't be in vain.

I do not believe the Multitude is already Raptured/Resurrected in Chapter 7. That their now wearing White Ropes isn't enough. I'd expect certain more specific poetic imagery if that was the case. The kind of terminology that is used in the 144,000 when they reappear in Chapter 14, of being the First Fruits and Redeemed out of The Earth. Perry Stone says the Bema Seat Judgement must have already happened here. How come no one has crowns then Perry? Their all martyrs so they should all have at least a Crown of Life. The Bema Judgment happens after the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet.

The account of The Sixth Seal is the only time the word "Wrath" occurs before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. And the problem is you can't build Doctrine on dialogue uttered by fallible human beings who aren't anointed Prophets of God.

That hermeneutic is of course lost on many people, there are teachers out there building doctrine on the things Jobs' idiot friends said, or justifying referring to Joseph as Jesus's father because Mary did in Luke 2 when Jesus was 12. The Bible is an infallible Book, but it still records humans saying very wrong things.

The Sixth Seal is one of the more recognizable parts of Revelation. My first memory as a small child of hearing anything from Revelation quoted is when watching the movie Ghost Busters, where Ray (Dan Aykroyd) recites it (getting the chapter it's in wrong). The world I believe will recognize the Sixth Seal when it happens. but they may not exactly get what it means right, and many Bible Prophecy teachers who are Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath, or even Post-Trib are only helping to get people confused on what it means.

Joel 2:31 says this is BEFORE the Day of The LORD, not during it, or on it, or right when it starts, Before.

It's after the Seventh Trumpet is sounded we first see voice sin heaven declaring that God's Wrath is at hand. And then again in Chapter 14.

Only the Seven Bowls are defined as being God's Wrath. Trumpets are Biblically, among other things, warnings. The sounding of Trumpets was the warning before the fall of Jericho. The judgments from the Trumpets are merely lesser warning shots. The Seven Bowls dwarf them.

Joel 2:1-16 I believe describe the last two Trumpets, and very much back up my viewing the Seventh as The Rapture, and hence my Mid-Tribulation view. We will NOT go through God's Wrath.

I believe Revelation shows us how to fit all other Prophecy together, so that Joel might seem to contradict Revelation's order isn't an issue. Joel was given a vitally important glimpse but not the whole picture. Joel 2:23 talks of the former rain and the latter rain. These I believe are the two great outpouring of The Holy Spirit at the beginning and culmination of The Church Age. I think it is also this that prompts Joels' vision to look back before what was just described. But then Joel 3 returns to the Day of Wrath.

To add additional support to the idea that the Cosmic and Terrestrial disturbances when Jesus was on the Cross were a type of those that occur at the Sixth Seal, I'd point to Joshua 10.

In verses 12 and 13 the Sun and Moon aren't darkened or turned to a different color.  But usual behavior with them occurs.  But the Key is verse 17-18.  "But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.And Joshua said, Roll great stones upon the mouth of the cave, and set men by it for to keep them: "  Sounds like a parallel to "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us".

But latter, those Five Kings are hung on trees in verse 26.  Not Strangled with a rope like you might assume, Biblical execution requires Bloodshed as shown by Genesis 9.  No the logical conclusion is they were Crucified.  And verse 27 "And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day."

In Esther, Haman was hanged (also really Crucifixion, the Persians are the ones usually credited with inventing it) on the 17th of Nisan, and his sons on the 14th of Adar.  Jesus was made Sin for us. Even though he was completely without Sin, God poured out his Wrath upon him as if he where just as Evil as Haman or Hitler.

The term "Great Tribulation"

On The Rapture I've mostly settled into a Mid-Trib position. But your typical Mid-Trib believer says that the "Great Tribulation" refers only to the second half of the 70th Week (and so from their POV their Pre-Trib) and is basically synonymous with The Wrath/Day of The Lord.  I'm different however, I view the term "Great Tribulation" as not such a specific term at all.

The Pre-Wrath position also believes both "Great Tribulation" and "Wrath" are only the last 3 and half years. But they divide it up, with the Rapture being were the split is.

Chris White, who's Pre-Wrath, makes an amusing mistake, he says the term "Great Tribulation" occurs only twice in The Bible, in Matthew 24, and Revelation 7. There is in fact another usage of the term I shall discus.

The word "Tribulation" alone occurs a lot, and is a term that most serious students of The Bible realize is synonymous with persecution, and is not at all limited only to a specific End Times time period. It is the term "Great Tribulation" that we tend to insist on making more specific, to some it refers to the entire 70th week, to some only the first half. And as I pointed out above some view it variantly as the second half or part of it. Some Pre-Tribbers would also say the entire 70th week is Tribulation but only the second half the "Great Tribulation".

The usage of the term that gets overlooked is in Revelation 2:22, where it's part of the message to the Church at Thyatira. "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

Typically people insist this should still be viewed as strictly end times because of the typological applications that clearly make Thyatira characteristic of The Catholic Church (I actually see Pergomos as equally or more Catholic in character), and perhaps also other Paganized "Christian" religions, like the Orhtodox, or Anglicans, or Mormons, ect. And I see some validity to those typological views, but it still must also apply to the original immediate context, or else the type tells us nothing. I think this was first fulfilled by the Christian persecutions that broke out in Asia Minor early in the reign of Hadrian.

And even looking at the type, it doesn't fit the way many Protestants want to see the Catholic Church's role in the Tribulation period. If it applies to the Vatican's End Times role then they will be victims of The Beast's persecution as much as any other Christians. Of course Revelation 17 does say the Beast will turn on Mystery Babylon. I don't view Mystery Babylon as the Catholic Church alone however, but as all Pagan religion.

One could say this has happened to the Catholic Church via Henry VIII's persecutions, or the massive Christian Persecution during the French Revolution, which was mostly against Catholics because the Protestant Reformation never made much ground in France. But those Atheists and Deists certainly hated other Christian sects just as much.

The point is, when we take this verse seriously the term "Great Tribulation" is no longer just one time period.

Some may point out that "the" is in the Greek text in Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 but not Revelation 3.  But Greek used it's definite article far more loosely then English.  Including using it before personal names.  As a KJV only believer in principle I trust they had good reasons grammatically to leave it out of the English Translation.

Matthew 24:21 is the main basis for insisting that the term applies specifically to the second half "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." the timing of this verse being what's happening in the wake of the Abomination of Desolation.

First off, I feel the wording can indeed work as saying we were already in Great Tribulation, but now it's escalating to it's most severe phase. Indeed Jesus had clearly already described a massive worldwide persecution before he reached the Abomination of Desolation.  In fact to me the wording, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time", absolutely implies there was "Great Tribulation" before.  But this shall be even greater.

The typical Pre-Wrath position seems to be that he describes the persecution then looks back to describe how it began. But it's funny because there are other places were their main objection to other views is their not interpreting the Olivte chronologically. I make no absolute claim that the Olivte Discourse is strictly chronological, as I've explained elsewhere Revelation is the key to how to unlock the Chronology of other Bible passages that summarize the End Times.

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes   , and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The Pre-Wrath position is that Matthew 24 tells us when "Great Tribulation" is, so we must be in the second half of the 70th week already here. To me it's absurd to think Revelation has reached the midway point of the 70th week any sooner then the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11. I've explained why elsewhere.

I agree that this Multitude is the same as we see in The Fifth Seal.  And I agree the Fifth Seal's opening correlates to the specific End Times persecution Jesus warned of in Matthew 24.  But the multitude isn't limited to those, it's clearly defined as all the Martyrs of The Church Age starting with Stephen.  They all came out of "Great Tribulation".

Western Christians tend to view persecution of the Church as limited to specific eras of Church History.  But there have always been believers being persecuted, either by non Christians or fellow professing Christians.  Even today, most of the Body of Christ is under the threat of death, in China, North Korea and various Islamic and other third world countries.

"Great Tribulation" is a term describing severe persecution. I view there as being two great  End Times persecutions coming.

1. A persecution of The Church during the first half, which will have a corresponding "Falling away" Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 2, and clearly placed before the unveiling of the Man of Sin.

2. A massive attempted Genocide of Israel, that begins as soon as the Abomination of Desolation happens which is why Jesus warned Israel to flee immediately (see my Olivite Discourse study). Revelation 12 likewise describes God as having a hiding place for her in the wilderness. Isaiah 63 hints at that place being in Edom. Petra is a popular theory.

Now the persecution of Israel we know for certain has The Beast and The False Prophet (The Antichrist) as the force behind it. The Church's persecution earlier may or may not be also, it isn't clear. The original Antichrist heresy may be what we're being persecuted for not accepting or maybe not. I've explained in other threads why I feel there may be decoy Antichrists during the first half of the 70th week.

But that's besides the point, the point is there will be a major worldwide persecution of Christians BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation happens. The Pre-Wrath people think their the ones most prepared for the coming persecution, but the ones I've studied at least (like Chris White) are clear that it doesn't happen till after the unveiling of the Man of Sin, and that the first half of the 70th week will be a seemingly good time for all Judeo-Christians. So to me their unprepared just as much as people thinking we'll be taken out first, because they think they'll be safe so long the Abomination of Desolation hasn't happened yet.

But it can also be valid to view this escalated "Great Tribulation" of Matthew 24 as simply a very brief time period between the Abomination of Desolation and His Coming.  It may seem like a lot happens in Matthew's account between those, but it's all described pretty broadly, and sometimes a lot can happen in very little time.  To me this could all fit easily into the three and a half days the Two Witnesses are lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

So that's why to me "Great Tribulation" characterizes the entire 70th week in a sense but also the entire Church Age. But there is no single individual "The Great Tribulation", that three word phrase is never in The Bible.

Based on Matthew 24:29, The Great Tribulation of The Church by definition ends at The Parusia.  No matter when The Parusia happens.

Post-Tribbers love to keep citing "immediately after the tribulation of those days" as if it proves their model, because they as much as Pre-Tribbers are in the habit of viewing "tribulation" and the 70th Week as synonymous.  But in fact that isn't Biblical.  The verse simply tells as the a tribulations has ended when the Rapture happens, alone it tells us nothing of the Rapture's timing.