An Argument for Zion of Revelation 14 being Earthly Zion

First of all if you're seeing this as a complete reversal of a certain post I made earlier this month, that was a post directed at Preterists rhetorically assuming certain Preterist presuppositions.

In Revelation 14 I definitely believe the Parousia is already in progress.  And the only apparent smoking gun that this Zion must be in Heaven not on Earth is the 144 Thousand being "Before The Throne".  But remember Daniel 7:9-14 is the foundational Hebrew Bible source material for how Jesus defined the Parousia, and that passage seems to involve YHWH's flying Chariot-Throne.  It could be The Throne is The Cloud or on it.

Hebrews 12:22 is the other major New Testament basis for a "Heavenly Zion", though it's actually Jerusalem Paul calls Heavenly there.  Paul does sometimes use Heavenly as a synonym for Spiritual.  That passage is about how we are Citizens of The Kingdom regardless of where we dwell or who controls any Earthly location.  And also about how the architectural final form of the City is currently under construction in Heaven.  It doesn't contradict the connection to a Terrestrial location.

Psalm 48 can be seen as the Old Testament basis for a Heavenly Zion since it links Zion to the "sides of the north" a term also used in Isaiah 14 about Satan's yet future fall from heaven.  But I think the relation of geographical terms in both these passages may be complicated.  If The Tabernacle of David were located where I currently hypothesize it was then it was indeed on a slope north of The Mountain's Summit.  And "Sides of the north" is used in some translations of where Beth-Togarmah is located in Ezekiel 38.  Since I believe Isaiah 14 is about End Times events it could refer to Satan and The Beast wanting to set up their own Throne on Mt Zion which will ultimately fail.

I should perhaps mention here how I don't think Zion was the location most people think it was.  I have argued on this Blog that Bethlehem is the City of David.  My current theory is that the Summit of Mt Zion is where the Mar Elias Monastery currently sits which is the highest elevated summit in the region, and I have a hunch that the Tabernacle of David stood where the fifth century Church of Mary's Seat was located to the north of the summit.  But even if that theory is wrong my position on this chapter doesn't change.

And thus this view can be compatible no matter what city you think Babylon and/or The Great City is.

It is frequently assumed that the Mount of Olives is where Jesus will Return to.  Now it could be involved in how all this plays out.  But the Biblical basis for it is weak in my view.  In Acts 1 what the Angel says is about Jesus Returning the same way He Ascended, it's not meant to be about the location of a landing spot.  And I think a strong argument can be made that the Zechariah 12-14 was fulfilled in 30 AD.  Still it could be He returns first to the Mount of Olives to begin the Resurrection there and then sets up His Throne on Zion.

It is often assumed the reference to "Heaven Opened" in Revelation 19 means a door opening in heaven and that the Rider on the White Horse and His Army are traveling from heaven to earth at that moment.  But that's not necessarily borne out by the text either.

Earlier in Revelation 11 a reference to Heaven being "shut up" is agreed by all to be a reference to it not raining, showing how the Witnesses echo the ministry of Elijah and using language from 1 Kings 8:35, 2 Chronicles 6:26 and 7:17.  In Genesis 7-8 the Windows of Heaven being Opened is terminology linked to the flood waters.  So this Terminology in Revelation 19 could be linked to the "latter rain" of Joel 2, or 2 Peter 3 talking about how the End Times Judgment will echo The Flood but with Fire instead of Water.  But I also now believe the ministry of the Witnesses is the same 1260 days as the Woman hiding in the Wilderness, so Heaven being Opened in Revelation 19 is the end of their shutting up of heaven.

This further proves the point that both Pre-Tribers and Post-Tribers are wrong on Revelation 19 being in any way the Second Coming, this is happening after He's already Returned.

My belief in The Man-Child being The Church means I see The Rapture as a second fulfillment of many Prophecies that were also about the Birth of Christ, like Micah 4 and 5.

The Eschatological significance of The Spring Feasts

It is popularly said the Spring Feast of Leviticus 23 were fulfilled in the First Advent and the Fall Feasts will be the Second Advent.  And that is mostly true, but the Fall Feasts do come up in the Gospel narrative.

Jesus' Crucifixion is the most important fulfillment of Passover.  But I think it has post shadowings as well as foreshadowings.  In the Book of Acts, Passover (incorrectly translated Easter once in the KJV) and Unleavened Bread continue to come up well after the Pentecost on which The Church was born.

This is a follow up of sorts to my recent post on the Fall Feasts.  That was focused on the Midway Point, this post will deal with how the Week begins and ends.  So like The Godfather Part II it is a prequel and a sequel at the same time.

I shall interpret the time periods from Revelation 11-13 (I'll mention Daniel's too, but I no longer feel Daniel's need to be Eschatological).  The math I did with my current 2030-2037 theory in mind, but I did similar calculations before with other years.  I encourage you to do your own calculations.

Revelation 11:1-2 says Jerusalem will be trodden under the foot of the Gentiles for 42 months.  Many have come up with all kinds of convoluted explanations of what that means, but using Scripture to interpret Scripture this is explained by Luke 21:24 as clearly an expression of military occupation.

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." and the next verse is the Second Coming and The Rapture.  Luke 21:20 through the first part of this verse I believe was fulfilled in 70 AD and Revelation 11 is the last part of the times of the gentiles.  But if it has a second fulfillment in the End Times, I believe it is at the start of the week not the midway point.

After the Two Witnesses are resurrected and ascend into heaven the people of the city (who we were told at the start are mostly gentiles) will believe and praise God, then the Last Trumpet sounds.  That is when the Fullness of the Gentiles are come in (Romans 11:25).

The 42 months I don't think necessarily need to be fulfilled to the day, they're broadly the same time period as the 1260 days but different in the specifics.  42 months before Yom Teruah takes us to (assuming there is a second Adar in there) the New Moon of Nisan three and a half years before.  Allowing wiggle room the siege could happen a little before or after.

The possibly that something will happen in the last month before the Week begins is logical, in the last month of the year the Barley Harvest is what lets Israel know the next New Moon will be the New Year.  Ezra 6:15 tells us the Second Temple was finished on the 3rd of Adar.  It is possible the Third Temple will be finished right before the Week begins, but I also think it possible it could last awhile before it begins.

The Two Witnesses will be killed three and a half days before Yom Teruah.  1260 days before that takes us to about, depending on when the proceeding Barley Harvest is, either the 7th of Nisan or 7th of Iyar.  Ezra 3:8 tells us Iyar was when Zeubabel and Jeshua began their work, they are considered types of the Two Witnesses so the Witnesses beginning their ministry in Iyar makes sense.  The 7th of Nisan is traditionally conjectured from the narrative of Joshua to be when his two spies were sent into Jericho, they too are types of the Witnesses.

I've argued before that the 1290 days are the first half of the Week not the second as usually assumed.  I've gone back and forth on if the Abomination of Desolation should begin or end it.    Either way what does happen at the beginning is the sacrifice and oblation being taken away.

If the 1290 days end on Yom Teruah then they could begin about either the 10th of Nisan or exactly a month before.    I could also see when they end being 10 days before or 10 days after.  If the earlier month for this is what happens it'd be the same with the Two Witnesses, and visa versa.  The 10th of Nisan I think will be important either way.

My theory on the first 6 seals is they happen very quickly in the Nisan that begins the Week.  The White Horseman might be the Antichrist before his death, or might be an anitchrist and/or a decoy antichrist.  Christians who want to co-opt the Rabbinic concept of Messiah Ben-Joseph as someone separate from Jesus could easily see that figure in the White Horseman.  The other three horseman will ride at about the same time, maybe as his allies or maybe as his enemies.

Whatever identity for him is true, I think he'll have his own Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem on the 10th of Nisan.  Maybe as someone many Jews and Christians will accept as a Messiah, or maybe as a conqueror.  And then maybe given a Crown on the 14th of Nisan.  And maybe killed on either the 14th or 26th of Nisan.  Cause either way for most of the first half of the Week the First Beast isn't a factor.

The Fifth Seal is a heavenly event, it shows all Martyrs of the Church, not just victims of a specific persecution.  But it's opening could still correlate to a specific persecution, like the one Jesus described in Matthew 24:9-14.

I've argued before that the Sixth Seal will open on the 14th of Nisan based on it's connection to Acts 2 and Joel 2 making the Earthquake and Darkness when Jesus was on The Cross it's near fulfillment.

I had argued then the 144,000 are sealed in Revelation 7 on Pentecost, I still feel they're connected to Pentecost but they're also called the First fruits in Revelation 14 so I now think their sealing will begin on First Fruits.

In one Seventh Trumpet post I talked about how Jewish custom has the Last Trump on Yom Teruh and the First Trumpet on Pentecost.  Connecting Trumpets to Pentecost is justified by Exodus 19-20 where in the third month when the Decalogue was given on Pentecost the Trumpets were sounded.

I think on the Pentecost following the start of the Week the 144,00 will be saved sparking a massive revival, the latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit, a repeat of the Pentecost of Acts 2.  Their Prayers will fill the golden Censor in the Heavenly Temple, it'll be thrown into the Earth causing more Earthquakes and thunder and lighting.  Then the Trumpets will be given to their Angels and the first will sound burning up the green grass and trees right as the Harvest season is starting.

I have no theories yet on when the 2nd-4th Trumpets will sound.  I have a post where I discus the timing of the Fifth and Sixth Trumpets.  Where I conjecture the Five Months the locust torment men will end on the 17th of Nisan, the day Jesus Rose, and Haman was hanged.

The text of Daniel 12 does not in any explicit way link the end of the 1290 days to the Sacrifices being restored.   It could be they're are restored 2300 mornings and evenings (1250 days, about 37 lunar months, 3 years) after their taken away, like Daniel tells us was the case with Antiochus' Abomination.  But in this case that wouldn't end on Hanukkah but in the Nisan that starts year four of the week.  Or perhaps they never will be restored.

If one insists the 1290 days need to be the second half.  If they begin on Yom Teruh they could end on the last day of Unleavened Bread, if they begin on Yom Kippur they could end on the New Moon of Iyar.  Either way fitting what I already suspect that when the Week is over the Israelites won't be able to observe Passover at the proper time and will need to delay to Second Passover.  If they begin three and a half, seven or ten days before Yom Teruah.  Still not quite allowing everything to be cleansed in time for a proper Passover.

The 42 months the Beast is allowed to continue, if they begin in early Tishri or late Elul would end in about Adar, again not needing to be fulfilled to the day.  Purim is when the sons of Haman were hanged.

The 1260 days Israel (The Woman) is in the wilderness begins right after The Rapture, even if they were fleeing in a sense already from the Abomination before.  1260 days from Yom Teruah takes us to about the 20th or 21st of Adar, and 1260 days from Yom Kippur takes us to about the end of Adar and Beginning of Nisan.  This is when their Messiah, a namesake of Joshua, will lead them into the Promised Land from Edom, as shown in Isaiah 63.

I think we need to consider that how the Armageddon reference in the 6th Bowl ties into Revelation 19 isn't quite what we assume.  And also that Satan being sealed in the Abyss is not the same day as Revelation 19 either.

I now respond to Post-Tribbers who say everyone else believes in more then one Second Comings by pointing out that Revelation 19 is never Biblically defined as the Second Coming.  Revelation 14 is where the Greek word Paursia is used.

Zechariah 12-14 is one vision but it has pieces, 9-11 are a separate vision.  Chapter 12 has the reference to Meggido/Armageddon, Chapter 13 has a possible illusion to the Idol Shepherd of chapter 11 being dealt with, and I think maybe the two thirds who are cut off and die are the armies following the Beast in Revelation 19 not Israelites as people often assume, two thirds of all gentiles, or the world's total population.

And Chapter 14 depicts Jerusalem still under siege, perhaps from Satan directly this time.  And Jesus Second Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives.  This one will also be on the 10th of Nisan, this time He'll be riding on a White Horse.  And given a Coronation on the 14th or 15th of Nisan. And perhaps raise from the dead whoever among the saved are still not yet raised on First Fruits (Ezekiel 37). So this Nisan will be important even though the Passover won't be kept till the following month.

The 1335 days is the one number form Daniel I'm most certain on.  It begins on the Yom Teruah that finished Revelation 11 and ends early in Sivan.  There is a strong possibility of it ending on Pentecost or the Sabbath the day before Pentecost.  No matter what the next Sunday after will be the Biblical date of Pentecost.

Pentecost as the day the Church Age began, and the Day Israel as born as a Nation with the giving of the Covenant in Exodus 19-20, fits perfectly as the day to formally begin The Millennium, or the Government that will rule The Millennium and a little after.  Because as I said before the only event that happens right when the Thousand years expire is Satan being released.  So I think the end of the 1335 days will be when Satan is bound in The Abyss.

Will the Spring Feats have relevance after The Millennium?  Well I think Satan will be released the same day he was bound, on if not near Pentecost.  I have a hunch the Gog and Magog war will involves the 17th of Tammuz, 9th of Ave and 3rd of Tishi, because God said in Zechariah he'd make their Fast Days joyous celebrations.

Seven years after 3rd of Tishri fits what I said on the Fall Feasts about New Jerusalem and Tabernacles.  Seven months later may mean they'll be finished cleaning up the dead bodies after Passover and need to do one last Second Passover.

So that is my view of the End Times relevance of the Spring Feasts.

My Hypothesis for the fulfillment of the Fall Feasts in Revelation

I watched much of Michael Rood's Prophecies in the Fall Feasts.  He says much that I found wonderfully edifying, especially on the Seventh Trumpet.  But I disagree on the Final Week beginning and ending in Tishri, I see the Fall Feasts as chiefly the midway point.

I want to lay out my hypothesis here, and while I'll be linking to earlier posts I'm also going against some things I said before in those same posts.  My mind does change as I study more.

I have a post on how the Two Witnesses and the 7th Trumpet fulfill Yom Teruah.  And about the Rapture of The Man-Child.  But I have one thing to add for Yom Teruah.

I'm hesitant to build doctrine on Rabbinic Traditions the way Michael Rood does, but some are interesting.  One idea not gained directly from The Bible is the days of Awe which begin with Yom Teruah and end with Yom Kippur in which the gates of Heaven are open.  Well one more thing we are told about the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11 is that the God's Temple in Heaven and the Ark of the Covenant was seen.  Genesis 24:55 could provide a basis for a period of ten days.

2 Chronicles 31 has the first fruits of Hezekiah's harvest begin being heaped up in the third month (the month of Pentecost) and finished in the Seventh month when they are gathered up and placed in the secret chambers of YHWH's House.  The beginning of Revelation 11 tells us the city of Jerusalem will be mostly Gentiles during the first half of the Week.  At the end when most of those people believe The Witnesses after their ascension, that is when he Fullness of the Gentiles is come in.

The days of Awe are the days you can seek atonement, the Judgment is set on Yom Kippur, but it's carried out on Tabernacles.  According to Rabbinic views at least.  That can happen to fit what I will lay out below, but it's not necessary for my argument.

The main interpretation of the twin Goats of Yom Kippur is that both point to Jesus, one bears our Sins and the other's Blood is shed for them.  One is Jesus bearing The Cross the other is him On It.  Biblical symbolism can be layered however, so that preferred view need not conflict with others.

Including the possibility of seeing Satan or other villainous figures in the Scapegoat.  I've argued on this blog before about both Cain and Barnabas.  I've also thought about the Goats of the Sheeps and Goats judgment being cast out.  I really don't like the Book of Enoch's popularity, but it does reflect a possibly very old tendency to see Satan in the Azazel/Scapegoat by calling it's most unique fallen angel Azazel.

What's relevant here is IF you think such a connection is valid, it can justify seeing Yom Kippur as the day Satan is cast out of Heaven.

My study of Isaiah 14 has lead to me to a conclusion that the Eight King ascending out of the Abyss happens after, probably the same day, Satan is cast out of Heaven.  Since I made that study I no longer view his death has needing to happen during the end times.
[Update note: my perspective on Isaiah has changed rendering this point moot.]

Traditional Jewish interpretations of the chronology of Exodus say the 40 days Moses was on Mt Sinai from Exodus 24:18-31:18 were Elul and the Days of Awe.  Near the end of that period is when chapter 32 tells us they made the Golden Calf.  When Moses came down on Yom Kippur they were worshiping it.  Antiochus Epiphanes' Abomination of Desolation was set up 10 days before it was consecrated.

So connecting the Abomination to Yom Kippur could make a lot of sense.  But I still think it possible there is an abomination of sorts at the start of the Week.  But putting these pieces together really helps my theory that the Image of Revelation 13 is the Eight King.  If you're thinking "but he has to kill the Witnesses before Yom Teruah" well I think that Beast is actually the second one.  Ascending out of the Bottomless Pit can apply to both, but Apollyon is The False Prophet.

I think maybe the mortal sword wound being healed isn't a death and resurrection itself but a sign that he's already resurrected.

But for those that insist the Abomination must happen both at about the middle of the week and before the Rapture.  I would consider placing it maybe when the Witnesses die three and a half days before the Rapture.  Or maybe a week before on Elul 23 the day referenced at the end of Haggai 1.  Or maybe 10 days before, Jesus refereed to 10 days of tribulation in the message to Smyrna.  Or maybe the beginning of Elul referenced at the start of Haggai 1.  Post-tribbers think Matthew 21-28 must span three and a half years because of other Biblical importance to that time frame, but Jesus mentioned no specific time lengths.

Yom Kippur imagery possibly still exists in Revelation 14 as well.  In the past I've written off theories that the Rapture doesn't happen all at once.  I'm now more open to that but not in any sense of them being separated by years, but rather less then half a month.  The Church is caught up on Tzom Gedaliah at the latest after being glorified on Yom Teruah.  If you're not saved by the Last Trumpet it's too late to be the Bride, but maybe not too late be a guest at the wedding.  No one I think gets Raptured alive after Yom Kippur.

The Son of Man on the Cloud with the Sickle and Crown is both the High Priest and the Shekinah Glory which are prominent in Leviticus 16.  The 144,000 I see s being a specific group of Church Age believers from each Tribe of Israel, but also representing the whole in a sense.

Those who argue Jesus was born on Tabernacles (a theory I find impossible) like to Translate John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," as "And the Word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us".  Well if any use of "dwell" or it's word forms can justify an illusion to Tabernacles, let's look at Revelation 13:6 talking about The Beast.

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven."  I've long viewed this as proof we are Raptured by this point.  Now I don't think we're at Tabernacles yet, I see this as the II Thessalonians 2 abomination event.  But it shows the conditions are in place.

One of the themes of Revelation 14 is the Grape Harvest.  The Grape Harvest has to be done before Tabernacles, Tabernacles is the festival to celebrate the Harvest.  One thing you can point out to undermine people's assumptions about how the Last Supper relates to Passover is to point out that there is no Torah basis for drinking wine on Passover or during the days of Unleavened Breast.  The only Holy Day where wine is mentioned is the Feast of Tabernacles in Deuteronomy 16.

When I was real little, I used to visualize God filling seven bowls with his Wrath as him vomiting into them.  As I got older I started thinking of that as silly and immature.  Until when I used to listen to Chuck Missler's seminars a lot how he'd cite verses I can't remember right now as saying our Sin is like a vile stench in God's nostrils.

And now I'm thinking of this Grape and Wine connection.  You know how when someone gets drunk off red wine they puke vomit that looks kinda blood red?  Well imagine then seven bowls filled with God's blood red vomit, two of which are poured into the world's water supply.  It will logically become red like blood.

The Blood=Wine connection didn't begin with the Last Supper.  It's implied in the very etymology of the Hebrew words for them according to Strongs.  It's implied in Genesis 49:11 and Deuteronomy 32:14 which refer to wine as the blood of grapes.  And Isaiah 63 which talks about Blood and Winepresses.  And it's repeated again at the end of Revelation 14, talking about God's Wrath.

Revelation 20 tells us those post Rapture Saints martyred for not taking The Mark will be beheaded.  Revelation 15 has them all in Heaven before the Bowls of Wrath are poured out.  I don't think this persecution will last very long, Revelation 13 seems to give the Beasts the means to kill most resisters pretty quickly.  I don't think any die after the Bowls have started.  Revelation 14:13 says.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, "Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

I've speculated before this could mean from here on all believers who die are resurrected and raptured right away.   But if not I think these martyrs will be Raptured when Tabernacles starts.

Does that mean I think once the Bowls start the only people on earth without The Mark are the Israelites being protected in Edom?  Maybe, maybe not.  It could be the troubles caused by the Bowls, even the first Bowl which will effect every Marked person, will hamper the beasts' ablity to kill anyone else.

John The Baptist was also beheaded, only other NT reference to that form of capital punishment, it's is pretty rare in Tanakh too, only occurrence I can recall is Jehu using it.

When I argued for Jesus being born in December, I also conjectured John was conceived between Yom Kippur and Tabernacles.  I now favor the 14th of Tishri as the day his conception process started paralleling Jesus on the 14th of Nisan- First Fruits.  Since one theme of that was Jesus being conceived at the same time frame (on the Hebrew calendar) as his Death and Resurrection, perhaps likewise John was beheaded on the 14th of Tishri.

Contrary to the Blood Moon hype, the 14th not 15th days of Biblical Months are the Full Moons.  The least important thing I'll mention in this thread is that if one model I'm speculating for when this might play out is correct, the 14th of Tishri in question will be a Lunar Eclipse.

Because I view Revelation as Chronological.  I believe the time allotted for the Bowls must span about three and a half years, the 42 months the beast reigns and 1260 days Israel is in the widlerness.  Arguments for a shorter time for the Bowls include Chris White and other Pre-Wrathers saying they're a month, Michael Rood saying they span the days of awe, and Rob Skiba saying they're all one day.  The only shorter model I could entertain is them spanning the seven days of Tabernacles.

But I've found an answer for how to bring the Tabernacles connection and spanning three and a half years together.

I've argued before the First Bowl must happen soon after The Mark is instituted.  Back then I was willing to allow half a year between them, but now I think closer to five days.  Then in my Great City post I observed how the remaining 6 bowls came in pairs.

The first Bowl I think will be the 15th of Tabernacles immediately following the Midway point drama I've just discussed.  One year later the 2nd and 3rd bowls will be poured out on the 16th and 17th of Tishri, destroying the world's water supply.

One year after that the 4th day of Tabernacles will see the Sun become really super hot.  But that I don't see lasting a long time.  In John 7 the midst of the Feast is when Jesus (The Sun of Righteousness) made his presence known.  The next day it will be blotted out, and based on Isaiah 13 that continues at least to the fall of Babylon.

One year after that, the last Tabernacles during the seven years, will see the last two days fulfill the last two bowls.

Haggai 2 refers to the 21st day of the Seventh month as a day YHWH will shake the nations.  I see that as alluding to the great earthquake of the 7th Bowl, the greatest of any in history including the more commonly quoted Sixth Seal.

Because of how Haggai 2 ties into Hanukkah and my careful reading of the Maccabees account.  I think the 21st of Tishri was actually the day the Maccabees liberated Jerusalem, but it wasn't till the 24th of Kislev that they had cleansed everything, then the following 8 days they Rededicated The Temple with a sort of second Tabernacles.  Antiochus Epiphanes did not die till awhile later, contrary to speculation I did before I read the accounts more carefully, we don't know when exactly.

As I said in the Great City post, the 7th Bowl is when Jerusalem is divided in three, and then after that God will judge Babylon.  That day is a judgment on Jerusalem, but also part of it's liberation, the beginning of it being reshaped into what we see in Ezekiel 40-48.

The eighth day I think will be Revelation 17-18 (and to an extent early 19) the Judgment on Babylon.

Esther 2:16 says Esther became the King's Wife in the Tenth Month (Tebet) of the seventh year.  It doesn't say what day.  Hanukkah begins in late Kislev but always ends in Tevet/Tebet.  The New Moon of Tevet is always during Hanukkah.

The next event in Revelation's timeline is the Marriage Supper.  Michael Rood talks about Jewish weddings being traditionally a seven day feast followed by an eighth day, thus justifying placing it on Tabernacles.  But remember Hanukkah is eight days because it was a second Tabernacles.

And The Bride of Christ is also His Temple, so it makes sense that the Feast of Dedication (which Jesus observed in John 10:22) will be the Wedding Feast in which He dedicates Himself to His Bride.

Also in Revelation 1-2 the Seven Churches (which typify the entire Church) are represented by Seven Lampstands.  Hence the importance of the Menorah to Hanukkah.  And Zechariah 4 has the two olive trees, the Witnesses next to it.  Jewish Weddings traditionally have Two Witnesses.  Jews also like to link Zechariah 4 to Hanukkah, seeing the Olive Trees on each side of the Menorah as foreshadowing the two added candles of the Hanukkah Menorah.

Jesus called himself "The Light of The World" in John 8, but He also called us in Matthew 5:14 "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

I disagree with the view that during this time-frame two thirds of all Jews will be wiped out in a holocaust that surpasses Hitler's.  I think that one detail of Zechariah 13 is being misused.  This will be a time that Israel (The Woman of Revelation 12) is protected in the Wilderness like in the days of Moses (which Tabernacles is supposed to be a memorial of).  There will be hardships, but I agree with those who assert that viewing the end times as God and Satan torturing the Jews until they repent is in fact a sneaky kind of antisemitism.  I believe this time results in their finally accepting Yeshua as their Messiah, but it will be what's done for them not to them that brings that about.

This isn't the final fulfillment of Tabernacles however, Zechariah 14 tells us it'll be observed in The Millennium.  And I've argued before that Tabernacles will be when New Jerusalem descends and the Eight Day when Time (as we know it) stops.  Though when I talked about that in the past I was more open to the Seven Millenniums theory that I now oppose.

I now have a follow up on the Spring Feasts.

Witnesses and The Seventh Trumpet

This is copied from a Pre-Trib Website arguing against linking the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11 to the Rapture's Last Trumpet of Yom Teruah.

Yom Teruah is the only festival that no man knows when exactly it will occur. This is due to the fact that it begins on the new moon. The new moon was sanctified when two witnesses see the new moon and attest to it before the Sanhedrin in the Temple. 

This sanctification could happen during either of two days, depending on when the witnesses come. Since no one knew when the witnesses would come, no one knew when the Feast of Trumpets would start. 

On the 30th of each month, the members of the High Court assembled in a courtyard in Jerusalem, where they waited to receive the testimony of two reliable witnesses. They then sanctified the new moon. The new moon is very difficult to see on the first day because it can be seen only about sunset, close to the sun, when the sun is traveling north. So, looking for a very slim faint crescent moon, which is very close to the sun, is a very difficult thing to do. If the moon’s crescent was not seen on the 30th day, the new moon was automatically celebrated on the 31st day. 

 They leave out another important detail however.

After the witnesses are interviewed, to confirm that they are indeed two agreeing witnesses, the High Priest was informed.  Then The High Priest stood at the top of the Temple Mount (because the witnesses brought this news to the bottom of the mount) and tells the two witnesses to "Come up" and they ascend the Temple Mount to the High Priest, and then they sound the Last Trump.

This site's argument against tying this to the Seventh Trumpet was.

We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year.

 It's not an argument, people are just under the assumption Yom Teruah and the 7th Trumpet can't be the same cause we are conditioned to think the Fall Feast begin/end years even though Biblically they mark the middle.  So we're not prepared to see them in the middle of Revelation unless you're a post-tirbber who garbles the chronology.

This site also talks about how Jewish thought also has a First Trumpet, and the First Trumpet is sounded on Pentecost.

Well I've argued on this Blog extensively why I see the Sixth Seal and Revelation 7 as the second fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32.  And the sealing of the 144,000 is the latter rain, the final great outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  So the First Trumpet being sounded right after that fits perfectly.

This site assumes the Great Trumpet and Last Trumpet can't be the same simply because Rabbinic Tradition distinguishes them I guess.

I believe when The Witnesses are Resurrected will be when the sliver of the New Moon of Tishri is seen.  The World will witnesses their rising, they'll preach some more, The Gospel will spread and then God will call them up to Heaven and they will Ascend to Heaven.

Then the people of Jerusalem (who we know from the beginning of chapter 11 are mostly Gentiles at this time) will Believe and Repent and Praise God.  That will be when the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.  Then the Seventh Trumpet is sounded.

Jesus said in Luke 21 that Jerusalem will be "Trodden under foot of the Gentiles till the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled".  And that is when he will return.

Zion and New Jerusalem

I've expressed in the past my view that The Church isn't on The Earth during The Millennium.  We're in New Jerusalem, which is also Yahweh-Shammah.

The physical city of New Jerusalem already exists, it's in Heaven, maybe it's accurate to say in a sense it IS Heaven.  It is the Heavenly Jerusalem and Zion of Hebrews 12:22.

The term "Sides of The North" appears in The Bible twice.  Once dealing with Lucifer's Fall in Isaiah 14, and once in Psalm 48 talking about the Heavenly Zion when it descends as New Jerusalem.

It is my belief that the 144,000 are part of the Church and in some sense represent The Church.

Revelation 14 describes them as standing on Mount Sion.  In terminology that implies now they have been Resurrected.

I see The Rapture in the Seventh Trumpet (which extends into the opening part of Revelation 12).

Revelation 14 depicts the Raptured Church standing in the Heavenly Zion.

Being Pre-Trib is frankly the least of Left Behind's problems

With the new Left Behind movie about to come out a lot of bloggers and websites are complaining.  Within the Church the negative comments about it mostly come from people who are irritated with Pre-Tribulationisim.  But as someone who's also not Pre-Trib, I don't even find that it's most annoying trait.  Same with other Pre-Trib based End Times fiction.  I haven't read all of it of course, but still I get the gist of what it's world is like.

None of these works of fiction about the Pre-Trib Rapture actually acknowledge the whole dispensational point of the uniqueness of The Church that lies behind it, and any view but Post-Trib or Preterisim/Amillennialisim.  There is no exploration of the fact that these post-Rapture believers lack certain promises that we of The Church have.  The problem is that these writers are probably all Cessationists, so to them The Church lost most of it's unique promises in the 1st Century.  I believe during the era just before The Rapture the 144,000 will be surpassing what the earliest Christians did just after Pentecost.

The simple fact that it's always obvious who The Antichrist is right from the start of The 70th Week is a problem to me.  Paul makes a point that the Abomination of Desolation incident is what identifies him.  And I believe there is good reason to expect there to be Decoy Antichrists during the first half of the 70th Week, among them The Terrible of The Nations.  So even from a writing perspective, why not have a few possible Antichrist and let readers argue over who it'll be.

They also tend to reflect how American Evangelicals have married their Faith to their Patriotism and political Conservatism way to much.  Of course The Antichrist is always the ultimate European Liberal (the End Times movie fad ended before the Mahdi thing really took off).

I'll be posting in the future on why I think End Times fiction that makes the President of the United States a hero who opposes The Antichrist and then gets killed by him is in fact potentially dangerous.

Along with that having an Antichrist who's Russian(ish), having video conferences with East Asian leaders as he destroys the U.S.  It's like they don't know the Cold War ended, and was only a fraud propped up by the Military Industrial Complex to begin with.

Also like a lot of Christian fiction it seems to come off unintentionally Calvinist.  Simply because the people who will or won't be saved are predestined by the writer.

There is a limit to how sinful they allow the characters who will latter become saved and members of the "Tribulation Force" to get.  The Airplane pilot stops short of actually committing adultery with the sexy stewardess.  I'd like to see a character analogous to Paul, who was a full blown enemy of The Gospel before being saved.

And then there is how they treat Homosexuality.  That they depict it as a Sin is sadly of course expected, but no Gay character ever becomes saved either, they're just there to be a problem for our protagonists until they suffer a horrible "deserved" death.  As if the writers agree with the insane position of some Baptists that being engaged in Homosexual activity is evidence of being no longer eligible for Salvation.

Both Christian writers and Secular Hollywood writers have trouble understanding the people who disagree with them.  But in all honesty it seems to me like the Left tends to make a better effort to at least try.

Perhaps all of the events linked to The Rapture happen over a Period of Days

I've discussed elsewhere how only The Trumpet and the Resurrection happens In the Twinkling of an eye.

I notice that the first part of Revelation 14 sees the 144,000 in their Resurrected states but still standing on The Earth on Mt.Zion. (correction, I now view this as being the Heavenly Zion, the Rapture was in Chapter 12).

I see many reasons to place the Seventh Trumpet sounding on the First of Tishri.  Among the things that happens after the 7th Trumpet is sounded is The Temple being opened in heaven and the Ark being seen.  Yom Kippur on the 10th of Tishri was the only day the High Priest was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies and see the Ark.

The concept of Yom Kuppor is first introduced in Leviticus 16.

In Verse 2.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

Cloud imagery, interesting in light of Revelation 14, and other Parusia passages.

I also think about how Pre-Tribbers and Pre-Wrathers think wearing White Robes in Revelation 7 means the Multitude is already Resurrected.  But I think Revelation 14 has more indisputable Resurrection terminology.

Leviticus 16 also tells us how Aaron had to put on a special purified Linen Robe before entering The Holy Place on Yom Kippur in verse 4.  But down in verse 23 "And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:"

I think the White Robe represent temporary garments worn only while unresurrected.  But they'll be left behind before the High Priest leaves The Temple.  Like the cloth Jesus was buried in.

The Partial Rapture Theory

All of my previous posts addressing Rapture views I disagree with have been focused on the main three popular views, Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath.

The Partial Rapture Theory isn't really a matter of timing, it can overlap with any of the other views.  It is sometimes linked to an idea that more then one Rapture will occur and thus they might all be right.  Some people believing a from of this I know are mainly Mid-Trib in their timing, so I feel the need to make sure people know this isn't a view I agree with.

The Partial Rapture Theory is that not all of the Saved alive on Earth at the time are Raptured at the Rapture, or at least not the first Rapture.  Only those who are the most Obedient and Faithful.

My views on Soterology and Ecclesiology could be viewed as lending themselves to this view.  I believe firmly in Eternal Security, yet I disagree with Calvinists and others who say they believe in Eternal Security but then turn around and say "if you are really saved you won't ______" whatever their line is.

I believe that like the Prodigal Son a Believer can squander their Inheritance but will never lose their Sonship.  I recommend Chuck Missler's studies on Eternal Security, including Hebrews 6.  Though I disagree with him on a few verses concerning Predestination where he sounds like he unwittingly agrees with the Calvinist view, but those are minor.

When Jesus in Matthew refers to the "Outer Darkness" that's not Hell.  Revelation 21:25-27 tells us that not everyone living in the New Heaven and New Earth will be in New Jerusalem.  And that some won't be allowed to enter it.  That's the "Outer Darkness" Jesus was referring to (because the context was clearly describing saved individuals, only the Saved are his servants), being outside New Jerusalem.

So some people when responding to certain views on Rewards tie in a disapproval of any notions that all Christians aren't equal at the Bema Judgment.  I believe we should not be Judging each other during our life on Earth, but it's clear in Eternity there will be distinctions.

BUT, that differentiation happens at the Bema Seat Judgment, and thus after The Rapture.  So it does not exclude anyone from The Rapture.  We are during our life on this Earth all part of the Body of Christ regardless of our obedience or faithfulness.

Some who agree with my view that the 144,000 are part of The Church and that they are Raptured in Revelation 14, will add that only the 144,000 are Raptured.  As I've said in other posts on that subject, they are a specific group that represents the whole.

I've said before that not all saved are part of The Church.  A related question to that however is, are all saved during the Church Age part of The Church?  While we're alive, yes.  I believe we're all The Body of Christ.  But after the Bema Seat Judgment, I do think it's possible some of us will lose our opportunity to be the Bride of Christ.

The Ten Virgins Parable of Matthew 15:1-13 is one Bible passage that could be used to support a Partial Rapture.  Actually the way Partial Rapture supporters interpret this is kind of the natural conclusion of the way Pre-Tribbers use it.  (That the Five Virgins taken represent those who hold the Pre-Trib view, and others those who do not).  Problem is, what Jesus tells the Foolish Virgins "I know you not" is how other Eschatological passages from Jesus define the unsaved.  Yet Pre-Tribbers don't usually want to say they think your not saved if your not Pre-Trib, but that seems to be the implication of their attitude sometimes.

Pre-Tribbers often forget that parables are not always what they seem.

I don't think this Parable is about the timing of the Rapture, or that the difference between the groups has anything to do with their theory on it's timing being correct or not.  Christ's offer to be his Bride is extended to all Humanity, but only the Saved are prepared to be ready to accept it when he comes.  Because the Saved have the Light of the World in us, our Lamps won't go out.

The Letters to the Seven Churches can also be used by Partial Rapture theorists.  Mainly the messages to Thyatira and Philadelphia.  Where certain statements make it seem like the former is told they will go into the "Tribulation Period" and the latter they will not.

To Thyatira he says of "Jezebel" and those committing Whoredom with her "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."  Thing is, in my Great Tribulation study I show that it isn't a specific time period at all, it refers to all Persecution the Church has faced.

To Philadelphia he says "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."  This is often used against Post-Trib in general.  One Question is, if this is about the Rapture, does it being only in Philadelphia's message mean it applies only to Philadelphian Christians?  The Promise for the Believer parts of the other Letters seem to embody many things characteristic of all Believers, so no I don't think so.

But also it this really Rapture relevant?

This Verse doesn't use Wrath or Tribulatio, or Day of The LORD.  It says Hour of Temptation.  I'm reminded of how in the Lord's Prayer, we're instructed to pray that we are lead not into Temptation and delivered from Evil.  And in Matthew 24:24 Jesus says "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The key complication is that it isn't possible.  I don't think this means we're immune to being tricked in general.  But once the Abomination of Desolation happens, things will be crystal clear to those with the Holy Spirit.

So neither of those two passages from the letters to the Churches I view definitively as Rapture relevant.

Not all of The Saved are part of The Church

I've already talked a good deal on aspects of this directly relevant to Eschatology in the Post-Trib label.  For the sake of reference I realize I should talk a little bit about the foundation of this Doctrine.

John The Baptist

John 3:25-29

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.  And they came unto John, and said unto him, "Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."

John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.  Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, "I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him."  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled."

John defines himself as not part of The Bride.

Jesus said in Matthew 11:11

" Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

John is not part of The Kingdom, which is The Church we know from the Kingdom parables.

I know people have other interpretations of these verses, but none of them hold up to me.  For the latter they say John isn't part of the Kingdom yet because he isn't Resurrected yet.  But we of The Church are citizens of The Kingdom already even while we're still mortal.  We're simply citizens who are currently residents of Satan's Kingdom.  That is one of the themes of Philippians.

The Church has a promise that the Holy Spirit shall never leave us.

John 14:16-18 " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Romans 8:9 tells us, “…if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” This verse very clearly states that if someone does not have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, then that person is not saved. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit were to leave a believer, that person would have lost the saving relationship with Christ. Yet this is contrary to what the Bible teaches about Eternal Security.  Salvation cannot be lost.

But Old Testament believers lacked this promise.  The Spirit departed from Saul (1 Samuel 16:14), and David feared it might depart from him as we see in Psalm 51:11.  It didn't depart from David however, in this one way David was a prelude of this special promise of The Church.  

The Holy Spirit played a role in Pre-Christian times, but the type of relationship he has with believers now began at Pentecost in Acts 2.

Some might insist this isn't a matter of The Church being unique but simply that things changed at The Cross, and by no means proves there will come a time when things like this will return to how they were before Pentecost.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 does say the Gifts of the Spirit shall cease "when that which is perfect is come".  However the secessionist argument that that moment is the completion of the Canon has no Biblical support.  Joel 2:28-32 which describes the Church Age condition of The Holy Spirit is also linked to the Sixth Seal.  I personally believe "when that which is perfect is come" refers to The Rapture/Resurrection of The Church, when we are perfected. 1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."  And Paul goes on to elaborate on that.

Sealed in The Holy Spirit

2 Corinthians 1:22 says we are Sealed with The Spirit in our Hearts.  Like how the Law of the New Covenant is now written on our Hearts rather then in Stone.

Ephesians 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise".
Ephesians 4:30 " And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Pre-Tribbers understand the Uniqueness of The Church, but insist we're not in The 70th Week at all.  I laugh when I see Pre-Tribbers and Pre-Wrathers talking about the Trumpet Judgments saying "there are no references to The Church, the only believers are those Sealed (the 144,000) being protected".  But being Sealed is a unique to The Church characteristic.

Paul also said this Sealing lasts until the Day of Redemption.  Revelation 14:3-4 says of the 144,000.  "which were redeemed from the earth.  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."  Which to me supports the Mid-Trib Rapture.  The Day of Redemption is the Resurrection and Rapture of The Church.

There is a constant debate about if the 144,000 are a literal number or symbolic and simply represents The Church.  It can however be both, a specific group representing the whole.  The whole of the Church still living on Earth during the first half of the 70th Week.

When the Bowls of Wrath are poured out, there are no references to those faithful to God being Sealed.  It's the followers of Satan and the Beast who are Marked.  Every Futurist view but Mid-Trib desires to view the Sealed 144,000 and the Marked as existing at the same time, but no passage in Revelation discuses them at the same time.  Only 14 (which I view as part of the transition from the first half of the 70th Week to the second) mentions them in the same chapter.  But still distinctly different parts.

I proved in the second post I made on this Blog that those beheaded for not taking The Mark aren't part of The Church.

The Seventh and Last Trumpet

 First I want to address those who refute the Seventh Trumpet view by claiming the "Last Trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) being called the "Trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) means it can't be sounded by an Angel.  Everything in Heaven is of God, and the Seventh Trumpet being clearly separated from the rest in it's sounding makes it unique.  In Revelation 15 and 16 the Seven bowls of Gods Wrath are poured out by Angels, even though we all know the Wrath in question is Of God, the Trumpets are the same.

A debate exists over whether or not the "Last Trump" that signals the Rapture in Thessalonians, and Corinthians and Matthew 24 is the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11 or the Last Trumpet sounded on the Feast of Trumpets.

Chris White argues it's neither and that we should look at the Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10.

It is true that the Biblical Hebrew text does not explicitly link Trumpets to the First of Tishri feast in Leviticus 23:24, that's an assumption we make based on Trumpets being added in translation, and extra Biblical traditions about that day. Chris White however seems to assume the Trumpets affiliated with the First of Tishri are the Ram's Horns. But a book I have on Hebrew customs (by Ethan Allen) says Silver Trumpets and Shofar were both sounded on that day.

Numbers 10:10 does say the Silver Trumpets are to be sounded "Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months". Now "solemn days" in the Hebrew texts refers to the "appointed times' or High Holy Days, meaning all of them outlined in Leviticus 23. And the beginning of each month would also include the First of Tishri.

The single word translated "blowing of trumpets" in Leviticus 23:24 is T@ruw`ah (ter-oo-aw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 8643. Is used in Numbers 10:5&6 where it is translated "Alarm".
"When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys."
In verse 7 it's a different word translated alarm, but one that is probably the root of the final syllable of Taruwah.

At any rate I'd agree we can't build solid doctrine on any extra Biblical assumptions about Rosh Hoshana. But this one may have more of a Biblical basis then he realized. The First of Tishri is the one day there is double the reason to sound those Trumpets. And the only thing we are told about it in Leviticus is a key word also used in Numbers 10 about blowing Trumpets.

Actually Psalm 81 I feel kind of refutes the claim that there is no Biblical basis for linking Trumpets to the First of Tishri.  In verse 3 Asaph wrote "Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day."  The only day that is both a New Moon and one of the Leviticus 23 ordained major Feast Days is the First of Tishri.  Here though Shofar is used rather then the word for the Silver Trumpets.

I don't think we should distinguish between the Rams Horns and Silver Trumpets in terms of how they may symbolically point to Heavenly/Eschatology Trumpets. Whether it's the verses indisputably about The Rapture or the Seven Trumpets in Revelation. Earthly Trumpets needed to be made from separate materials for Earthly reasons, but the Heavenly Trumpets are probably not really made from any Earthly substance at all. Silver is Levitcully a symbol of Redemption, and Ram's Horns are taken from Sacrificial offerings.  So symbolically both point to Jesus as our Sin Offering, who's voice is sometimes described as "like a Trumpet".  And the New Testament only uses one Greek word for Trumpet.

Hosea 5:8 Poetically uses both words for Trumpet as if their synonyms. But the KJV renders one of them Cornet to avoid sounding redundant.

He's also wrong that the Trumpet themes through out the Prophets are always the Silver Trumpets.  Hosea 5:8 is the only time the Silver Trumpets are mentioend in the Porphetic Books.  And Psalm 98 the only time they're in the Psalms.  Both have the Shofar also in the same verse.  Every other Trumpet reference in the Psalms or Prophets it is the Shofar.  And Plenty seem linked to The Rapture/Day of The LORD.

I believe that the references to the Trumpets in Revelation are meant to draw on all the earlier Trumpet themes of Scripture. Both the Silver and the Rams Horns. Because I view Revelation as explaining the rest of Scripture, and unveiling all things that were before mysteries. Meaning if the Trumpet that signals the Rapture isn't in Revelation, then Revelation has arguably failed to serve part of it's purpose.

Post-Tirbbers often agree with seeing the Rapture in the same Revelation passages Mid-Tirbbers do, but make it compatible with their view by garbling the chronology of Revelation in ways that are ridiculous.  Those would also agree with my on the Seventh Trumpet being sounded on he First of Tishri, I would point out that there is no Biblical basis for God post Exodus ever returning to Tishri rather then Nisan years.

Of the passages outside Revelation viewed as being the most indisputably about The Rapture, a Trumpet sounding is the most nearly universal detail.  Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52, and I feel the most solid Old Testament reference in Joel.  Yet Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath people refuse to look for a Trumpet in their placement in Revelation, and Pre-Wrathers feel their position is proved by Rapture signs only used in the Olivite Discourse yet never by Paul.

Both Post-Tribbers and Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath supporters love to refute the Pre-Trib argument that Matthew 24 isn't referring to the same coming/gathering as Paul by pointing out all the parallels between that account and Paul's from Thessalonians and Corinthians. There are at least 20. But what many either miss or ignore is that a number of those same parallels apply to the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11.

We have a Trumpet sounding followed by great voices in Heaven. The use of the word "Archangel" in Corinthians is a different from then when Jude uses it of Michael. It ends with an "n" making it technically plural in Greek.

We have The Four Cherubim declaring God's Wrath is come, in a way that makes clear it hadn't come before the 7th Trumpet.

We have talk about it now being the "Time of the Dead" and time to judge and reward the saints. That sounds like the Bema Judgment to me.

I also think "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament" could correlate to "The sign of the Son of Man" being seen in the Heavens. One can argue the Ark of the New Testament is the Cross on which The Lamb's Blood was shed for our Sins.

There is lighting and another Earthquake. The Seventh Trumpet account lacks reference to the Sun or Moon being darkened. But this could be left over effect for the Fourth Trumpet, and/or when the Smoke form the Abyss covered The Earth following the Fifth.

Also there were no Chapter breaks originally, to Revelation 12's beginning is still the Seventh Trumpet.  The word Harpatzo is used, and stars fall from heaven.  And possibly a layer of meaning here is astronomical clues pointing to the New Moon of Tishri.

Then after the rest of 12 and 14 continue laying out the Mid-Trib drama, we come to 14.

The 144 Thousand are seen on Mt. Zion, and it sounds to me like they're in their Resurrected state, with talk of being "Redeemed from the Earth" and being the "First Fruits". I do not allegorize the 144 Thousand, they're a specific group of believer. But I do think their part of the Church and Resurrected already here. A better argument certainly then the weak one that the Multitude in Chapter 7 are Resurrected already.

And latter we have "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man" in verse 14. And with it's Harvest imagery.

And further reading shows the pouring out of God's Wrath is still only about to happen.

And then supplemental to what follows the Seventh Trumpet, is what proceeds it. It seems to immediately follow the Resurrection and Rapture of the Two Witnesses. Again, I do not allegorize the Witnesses, they're Enoch and Elijah to me. But I do think it's possible their Rapture could have a connection to ours. Their being taken out of the Earth alive before are each seen as types of The Rapture after all.

I think there is more then enough connection between the Seventh Trumpet and the Last Trump to see them as connected.

Revelation 9:20 shows the Image of the Beast hasn't been set up yet. Because the Idols these people are being judged for worshiping "neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:". So the life like Image of the beast isn't here yet.

Actually, Revelation 9 is a major Death nail for the Pre-Wrath position. No damned individual should be able to Ascend out of the Bottomless Pit before it is unlocked. But the Pre-Wrath position needs this to be well after the Abomination of Desolation, which can't happen until after The Beast ascends out of the Bottomless Pit. We're told he's ascended out of it already when he kills The Two Witnesses.

I believe Revelation 9 is the Removal of The Restrainer.  As I explained in this blog's first post.

Pre-Wrath people usually insist the ministry of The Witnesses is the second half of the 70th week. But Malachi clearly says Elijah returns BEFORE the great and terrible Day of the LORD.

I've also decided I see Joel 2:1 as the Sixth Trumpet, what happens after it sounds has some clear parallels to what happens in Revelation 9:13 and up, with a bizarre Supernatural army of Fiery Horsemen.

And so Joel 2:15 I see as the Seventh Trumpet, where the people are Gathered and the Groom collects his Bride. Between them in verse 10 the Sun and Moon are described as being darkened.

I did a Google search on the subject, and it seems no one else has noticed this yet, Which surprises me. Many I've seen, like in J.R. Church's book on the Minor Prophets, link Joel Chapter 2 to the Fifth Trumpet, though to me that doesn't work quite as well. I don't like Allegorizeing the Locust of Revelation 9 into an Army, when the next Judgment is explicitly defined as an Army. To me the creatures let out of the Abyss are Demons taking temporary physical forms, like the ones they sometimes take from TransYughothian Ceremonial Magick rituals. That's the significance of The Smoke.

The Invading Army in Joel 2 is usually either taken as the Gog and Magog Invasion, or Armageddon. But to me it seems to be placed before The Rapture, which doesn't fit the latter. And I've become convinced that the former happens after the Millennium.

It seems people identifying as Pre-Wrath think a lot still happens between the Abomination of Desolation and the Rapture. Enough to account for months or even years. Basically, to them the Persecution of The Church the Matthew 24 Olivite Discourse describes happening before the Abomination of Desolation, and as correlating to the Fifth Seal, actually happens after the Abomination.

Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 clears places the "Falling Away" before the Abomination of Desolation.  This falling Away is seen by Pre-Wrather as correlating to the Matthew 24 persecution.

There are two coming end times Persecutions I believe. As I explain in the "Great Tribulation" post.

I believe the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet is on the Feast of Trumpets.  So it's not either/or between those two options.

The Sixth Seal

Revelation 6:12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

First of all, I want to explain that I don't believe most of the other Prophecies people see as the same as the Sixth Seal actually are.

People like to talk about a frequent Prophetic pattern of "Signs in the sun, moon and stars", which may or may not also feature an Earthquake. But they're all actually pretty specific on those signs, and their not all the same. And the Sixth Seal is NOT the only time in Revelation there are signs involving the sun, moon and stars, and certainly not the only Earthquake.

Only two other Bible passages refer to the Moon becoming like Blood. Joel 2:31, and Acts 2 where Peter Quotes that part of Joel. I'll get to the significance of that latter.

Isaiah 13:10 says that neither the sun, moon or stars will give their light. People act like this is effectively the same, but not only are they not, they're mutually exclusive. If the Moon has a visible color it is giving light. Joel has two verses interestingly that do describe that kind of event, one in a context I believe places it between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets. The others in Joel chapter 3 along with Isaiah 13 I think refers to the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath, when the Kingdom of The Beast is darkened.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13's account of The Rapture speak also of both the Sun and Moon not giving light (no Blood Moon). Here stars also fall, but it's still distinct.  The event is also linked to a Trumpet, not to a Seal.  The Sixth Seal doesn't mention lightening either.

These aren't referring to Lunar and Solar Eclipses, since they're happening simultaneously. Dr. Robert Thieme tells us of the eruption on August 27th 1883, there were Earthquakes and tidal waves. And also that because of the volcanic ash the sun was blotted out and the moon looked red.

I love how Pre-Wraht people tend to argue against the idea of a Lunar Eclipse being described here.  but will also use the concept of what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying that the Moon turning like Blood can be the same as it being Darkened.

Even if it is valid to see the Cosmic Signs aspect of the Olivtie Discourse as having some connection to the Sixth Seal.  It's clearly to me only that the Sixth Seal begins those kinds of signs.  Pre-Wrath people want to dogmatically build doctrine on placing The Rapture in the Sixth Seal based on it having a small subsets of the Rapture related signs, signs that are not in Paul's Rapture accounts at all.  The far more universal defining features (Trumpet, Voices in Heaven, Son of Man coming on a Cloud, Resurrection of The Death, Harvest imagery)  Are not in the Sixth Seal, their Revelation parallels are in chapters 11-14.

I believe firmly that Joel 2:28-32 and the Sixth Seal are the same.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Now no Earthquake is mentioned in Joel. But Peter in quoting this in reference to his time clearly sees the basis for the Sun being Darkened in the Darkness that happened when Jesus was on The Cross, and there was an Earthquake there. Clearly this event in Peter's day was only a lesser near fulfillment. Revelation 6 sees a worldwide Earthquake, that rearranges Terrestrial geography like something from The Silmarillion or the Akallabêth.

Remember that the Chapter divisions are not part of the original text. So Revelation commentaries, and weeks long Bible Studies always separate the Sixth Seal from Revelation 7 and the sealing of the 144,000. But when we remember to look at this in the Context of Joel and Acts, it seems to me that this is in fact still the same event, even if some time has passed.

The concept of believers being Sealed is discussed outside Revelation in Paule's Epistles. In 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30. All of them sound to me like their about conditions unique to The Church, that don't apply to Pre or Post Church Age believers. So I reject allegorizeing the 144,000, I believe their specific people living at a specific time, and that specific number, or each of the 12 Tribes. Not simply representing the entire Church. But I do believe their part of The Church. They're also described in chapter 14 in terms that sound a lot like The Bride of Christ to me.

To the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view this must be after The Church age has ended. To the Pre-Wrath view this is right where it ends. But I see it far more likely that this is still during the Church Age, but near it's end. A sort of Culmination or Climax. One Last Great Outpouring of The Holy Spirit, greater even then the original at the Pentecost of 30 A.D. (Maybe this will also be linked to the Passover-Pentacost season). So the Church Age can end like how it started. I reject the common Baptist view that the Spiritual Gifts were only until the Canon was complete, but I'm not strictly a Pentecostal since my Soterolgoy is Baptist. And I'm certainly not Charismatic.

Some have decided to claim all of the 144,000 will be male, because their described as men. Greek and Hebrew did NOT use any word for both of the meanings we use "man" for. The 144,000 are Anthropos, which means Man as in Mankind, the Human Race. Typically the Greek stand in for Adam, but also for Enos. So not only can they include women, but Joel saying "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" tells us that clearly many (maybe exactly half) will be. I would not rule out Transgender and Intersex individuals either.

So like the first outpouring this finale one will be initially upon The House of Israel. 12,000 of each of the 12 Tribes.

Because it follows the Fifth Seal, which shows the Martyrs of all persecutions of The Church, who we see again in chapter 7, but in the context of the finale great persecution. I believe this happens after we've already entered the major World Wide persecution of Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:9-14. So the usage of the term "Great Tribulation" tells us nothing about timing, as I have another study on.

There will be a falling away as Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 when this happens, because in The West we'll be unprepared for Persecution. Some of those who recant and leave may be people who weren't really saved but just nominal Christians, in the Church only because they were raised in it, or some other convenient reason. But I don't believe it's impossible for truly Saved people to fall away. They could lose their inheritance because of this but not their Salvation. I recommend Chuck Missler's explanation of Hebrews 6.

But regardless of those problems, The Church has also historically grown under persecution. So while at first we react badly, in time I believe we will grow from it. So I think possibly most or even all of these 144,000 will be individuals Saved after this persecution started. So the witness of those Martyrs faithful unto death won't be in vain.

I do not believe the Multitude is already Raptured/Resurrected in Chapter 7. That their now wearing White Ropes isn't enough. I'd expect certain more specific poetic imagery if that was the case. The kind of terminology that is used in the 144,000 when they reappear in Chapter 14, of being the First Fruits and Redeemed out of The Earth. Perry Stone says the Bema Seat Judgement must have already happened here. How come no one has crowns then Perry? Their all martyrs so they should all have at least a Crown of Life. The Bema Judgment happens after the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet.

The account of The Sixth Seal is the only time the word "Wrath" occurs before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. And the problem is you can't build Doctrine on dialogue uttered by fallible human beings who aren't anointed Prophets of God.

That hermeneutic is of course lost on many people, there are teachers out there building doctrine on the things Jobs' idiot friends said, or justifying referring to Joseph as Jesus's father because Mary did in Luke 2 when Jesus was 12. The Bible is an infallible Book, but it still records humans saying very wrong things.

The Sixth Seal is one of the more recognizable parts of Revelation. My first memory as a small child of hearing anything from Revelation quoted is when watching the movie Ghost Busters, where Ray (Dan Aykroyd) recites it (getting the chapter it's in wrong). The world I believe will recognize the Sixth Seal when it happens. but they may not exactly get what it means right, and many Bible Prophecy teachers who are Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath, or even Post-Trib are only helping to get people confused on what it means.

Joel 2:31 says this is BEFORE the Day of The LORD, not during it, or on it, or right when it starts, Before.

It's after the Seventh Trumpet is sounded we first see voice sin heaven declaring that God's Wrath is at hand. And then again in Chapter 14.

Only the Seven Bowls are defined as being God's Wrath. Trumpets are Biblically, among other things, warnings. The sounding of Trumpets was the warning before the fall of Jericho. The judgments from the Trumpets are merely lesser warning shots. The Seven Bowls dwarf them.

Joel 2:1-16 I believe describe the last two Trumpets, and very much back up my viewing the Seventh as The Rapture, and hence my Mid-Tribulation view. We will NOT go through God's Wrath.

I believe Revelation shows us how to fit all other Prophecy together, so that Joel might seem to contradict Revelation's order isn't an issue. Joel was given a vitally important glimpse but not the whole picture. Joel 2:23 talks of the former rain and the latter rain. These I believe are the two great outpouring of The Holy Spirit at the beginning and culmination of The Church Age. I think it is also this that prompts Joels' vision to look back before what was just described. But then Joel 3 returns to the Day of Wrath.

To add additional support to the idea that the Cosmic and Terrestrial disturbances when Jesus was on the Cross were a type of those that occur at the Sixth Seal, I'd point to Joshua 10.

In verses 12 and 13 the Sun and Moon aren't darkened or turned to a different color.  But usual behavior with them occurs.  But the Key is verse 17-18.  "But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.And Joshua said, Roll great stones upon the mouth of the cave, and set men by it for to keep them: "  Sounds like a parallel to "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us".

But latter, those Five Kings are hung on trees in verse 26.  Not Strangled with a rope like you might assume, Biblical execution requires Bloodshed as shown by Genesis 9.  No the logical conclusion is they were Crucified.  And verse 27 "And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day."

In Esther, Haman was hanged (also really Crucifixion, the Persians are the ones usually credited with inventing it) on the 17th of Nisan, and his sons on the 14th of Adar.  Jesus was made Sin for us. Even though he was completely without Sin, God poured out his Wrath upon him as if he where just as Evil as Haman or Hitler.

The term "Great Tribulation"

On The Rapture I've mostly settled into a Mid-Trib position. But your typical Mid-Trib believer says that the "Great Tribulation" refers only to the second half of the 70th Week (and so from their POV their Pre-Trib) and is basically synonymous with The Wrath/Day of The Lord.  I'm different however, I view the term "Great Tribulation" as not such a specific term at all.

The Pre-Wrath position also believes both "Great Tribulation" and "Wrath" are only the last 3 and half years. But they divide it up, with the Rapture being were the split is.

Chris White, who's Pre-Wrath, makes an amusing mistake, he says the term "Great Tribulation" occurs only twice in The Bible, in Matthew 24, and Revelation 7. There is in fact another usage of the term I shall discus.

The word "Tribulation" alone occurs a lot, and is a term that most serious students of The Bible realize is synonymous with persecution, and is not at all limited only to a specific End Times time period. It is the term "Great Tribulation" that we tend to insist on making more specific, to some it refers to the entire 70th week, to some only the first half. And as I pointed out above some view it variantly as the second half or part of it. Some Pre-Tribbers would also say the entire 70th week is Tribulation but only the second half the "Great Tribulation".

The usage of the term that gets overlooked is in Revelation 2:22, where it's part of the message to the Church at Thyatira. "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

Typically people insist this should still be viewed as strictly end times because of the typological applications that clearly make Thyatira characteristic of The Catholic Church (I actually see Pergomos as equally or more Catholic in character), and perhaps also other Paganized "Christian" religions, like the Orhtodox, or Anglicans, or Mormons, ect. And I see some validity to those typological views, but it still must also apply to the original immediate context, or else the type tells us nothing. I think this was first fulfilled by the Christian persecutions that broke out in Asia Minor early in the reign of Hadrian.

And even looking at the type, it doesn't fit the way many Protestants want to see the Catholic Church's role in the Tribulation period. If it applies to the Vatican's End Times role then they will be victims of The Beast's persecution as much as any other Christians. Of course Revelation 17 does say the Beast will turn on Mystery Babylon. I don't view Mystery Babylon as the Catholic Church alone however, but as all Pagan religion.

One could say this has happened to the Catholic Church via Henry VIII's persecutions, or the massive Christian Persecution during the French Revolution, which was mostly against Catholics because the Protestant Reformation never made much ground in France. But those Atheists and Deists certainly hated other Christian sects just as much.

The point is, when we take this verse seriously the term "Great Tribulation" is no longer just one time period.

Some may point out that "the" is in the Greek text in Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 but not Revelation 3.  But Greek used it's definite article far more loosely then English.  Including using it before personal names.  As a KJV only believer in principle I trust they had good reasons grammatically to leave it out of the English Translation.

Matthew 24:21 is the main basis for insisting that the term applies specifically to the second half "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." the timing of this verse being what's happening in the wake of the Abomination of Desolation.

First off, I feel the wording can indeed work as saying we were already in Great Tribulation, but now it's escalating to it's most severe phase. Indeed Jesus had clearly already described a massive worldwide persecution before he reached the Abomination of Desolation.  In fact to me the wording, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time", absolutely implies there was "Great Tribulation" before.  But this shall be even greater.

The typical Pre-Wrath position seems to be that he describes the persecution then looks back to describe how it began. But it's funny because there are other places were their main objection to other views is their not interpreting the Olivte chronologically. I make no absolute claim that the Olivte Discourse is strictly chronological, as I've explained elsewhere Revelation is the key to how to unlock the Chronology of other Bible passages that summarize the End Times.

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes   , and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The Pre-Wrath position is that Matthew 24 tells us when "Great Tribulation" is, so we must be in the second half of the 70th week already here. To me it's absurd to think Revelation has reached the midway point of the 70th week any sooner then the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11. I've explained why elsewhere.

I agree that this Multitude is the same as we see in The Fifth Seal.  And I agree the Fifth Seal's opening correlates to the specific End Times persecution Jesus warned of in Matthew 24.  But the multitude isn't limited to those, it's clearly defined as all the Martyrs of The Church Age starting with Stephen.  They all came out of "Great Tribulation".

Western Christians tend to view persecution of the Church as limited to specific eras of Church History.  But there have always been believers being persecuted, either by non Christians or fellow professing Christians.  Even today, most of the Body of Christ is under the threat of death, in China, North Korea and various Islamic and other third world countries.

"Great Tribulation" is a term describing severe persecution. I view there as being two great  End Times persecutions coming.

1. A persecution of The Church during the first half, which will have a corresponding "Falling away" Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 2, and clearly placed before the unveiling of the Man of Sin.

2. A massive attempted Genocide of Israel, that begins as soon as the Abomination of Desolation happens which is why Jesus warned Israel to flee immediately (see my Olivite Discourse study). Revelation 12 likewise describes God as having a hiding place for her in the wilderness. Isaiah 63 hints at that place being in Edom. Petra is a popular theory.

Now the persecution of Israel we know for certain has The Beast and The False Prophet (The Antichrist) as the force behind it. The Church's persecution earlier may or may not be also, it isn't clear. The original Antichrist heresy may be what we're being persecuted for not accepting or maybe not. I've explained in other threads why I feel there may be decoy Antichrists during the first half of the 70th week.

But that's besides the point, the point is there will be a major worldwide persecution of Christians BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation happens. The Pre-Wrath people think their the ones most prepared for the coming persecution, but the ones I've studied at least (like Chris White) are clear that it doesn't happen till after the unveiling of the Man of Sin, and that the first half of the 70th week will be a seemingly good time for all Judeo-Christians. So to me their unprepared just as much as people thinking we'll be taken out first, because they think they'll be safe so long the Abomination of Desolation hasn't happened yet.

But it can also be valid to view this escalated "Great Tribulation" of Matthew 24 as simply a very brief time period between the Abomination of Desolation and His Coming.  It may seem like a lot happens in Matthew's account between those, but it's all described pretty broadly, and sometimes a lot can happen in very little time.  To me this could all fit easily into the three and a half days the Two Witnesses are lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

So that's why to me "Great Tribulation" characterizes the entire 70th week in a sense but also the entire Church Age. But there is no single individual "The Great Tribulation", that three word phrase is never in The Bible.

Based on Matthew 24:29, The Great Tribulation of The Church by definition ends at The Parusia.  No matter when The Parusia happens.

Post-Tribbers love to keep citing "immediately after the tribulation of those days" as if it proves their model, because they as much as Pre-Tribbers are in the habit of viewing "tribulation" and the 70th Week as synonymous.  But in fact that isn't Biblical.  The verse simply tells as the a tribulations has ended when the Rapture happens, alone it tells us nothing of the Rapture's timing.