No Premillennialists do not believe the Great Commission will fail.

As InspiringPhilosophy claimed in his latest End Times Video.

His understanding of the Great Commission is based on the bad "Make disciples of all nations" reading of the last two verses of Matthew 28, but that is not supported by the KJV or the Young's Literal Translation where it says to teach all nations (the Peshitta also supports this reading).

I believe The Great Commission has already succeeded because I don't view it as requiring the entire earth to become Christian, there are Christians in every country now, The Bible can be read in pretty much every Language.  The Gospel has indeed been published in all the world.

While IP is different from Victorious Eschatology, once again he repeats the trope that Partial Preterism is a more "Positive" view then Futurism.  And again I believe in Universal Salvation, if you do not then you can't claim your eschatology is more optimistic then mine.

"The Night is Darkest just before The Dawn" that's a quote from the last episode of the Canadian English Dub of Futari wa Pretty Cure season 1.  Bad things happening before the end does not make our view inherently nihilistic.  

That said I'm far from a standard Pre-Mil Futurist and have not made up my mind actually how much of the traditional view of The Beast I still hold to, there is plenty of room within Pre-Mil and Futurism to debate just how bad things will get.

Thing is we've reached the point where it's pretty secularly undeniable that things are gonna get pretty Bad if Jesus doesn't return soon.  We have little hope right now of solving Climate Change before it become irreversible.  "Lest those days be shortened there will be no flesh left".

I have already made a point on this blog out of how what actually is defined as being exactly a Thousand years is Satan being bound in The Abyss.  The Kingdom doesn't end when the Thousand Years ends, and I place the Parousia some amount of time before it begins as well (at the 7th Trumpet and thus before the Bowls).  The sense in which The Kingdom began at Pentecost and/or with Jesus's Ministry is not in conflict with Premilenialism, not how I understand it anyway.

Revelation isn't the only Book to mention a time period between the Parousia when Believes are Resurrected and the final General Resurrection, it is in fact also in 1 Corinthians 15:23-26.  Revelation 20 is simply the only place this time period is given a specific number of years.

The difference between Revelation and other Prophecies isn't a matter of how "clear" or "cryptic" they are, even the Olivet Discourse uses figures of speech you can't take hyper literally, before it even gets to the Parables.  

Revelation needs to be interpreted Chronologically because it's opening defines itself as Jesus revealing to us what God has revealed to Him that previously even He didn't know.  In Matthew 24 that is explicitly the timing of everything.  The book clearly presents itself as a sequence of evens being revealed to John as a sequence of causes and effects, the only reason the book has ever been confusing is because even most Futurists now insist on garbling the Chronology to suit their pet theories.

Eventually the video delves into the usual Preterist memes I've already talked about on this blog like making everything about 70 AD (most Prophecies I do interpret preteristically I see as about the reign of Hadrian) or the 666=Nero lunacy.

The Sequence of Events associated with The Parousia

The foundational premise of this blog, that the events of Revelation are chronological, they are presented as a clear sequence of events.  Is not based on saying all Prophecies are that way, but that Revelation is uniquely chronological because it's purpose is to REVEAL how everything else ties together.

In some cases the apparent chronology of events in other prophecies fit Revelation's fine.  In some cases where a dual fulfillment may be involved it could be the older prophet's sequence of events fits the near/local fulfillment more then it does the final Eschatological fulfillment.

It's mainly in the late 30s of Ezekiel where it looks like YHWH revealed things to that Prophet practically backwards if one of my theories about them is true.

But it is in particular when a lot of things seem to be happening very quickly over a relatively short period of time that it shouldn't be that difficult to get that the shorter briefer description is perhaps not as strictly chronological.  If someone came to you and said "man you won't believe all the crazy stuff that just went down at the corner" and then rapidly rambled a bunch of things you wouldn't be too surprised to find out the order of events as they first described them were slightly off.

And that is the case with The Parousia.

The word Parousia doesn't appear in Revelation, but the events associated with it when Jesus first defined it for us in Matthew 24:30-31 and later elaborated on by Paul in the Thessalonian Epistles and parts of 1 Corinthians 15, and has a lot of other even briefer references.  Clearly happens in Revelation starting in Chapter 11 Verse 15 and are finished by the end of chapter 14.  It is pretty clear to me that Revelation is far more concerned with the proper order of events.  Still I do believe they will all happen over the course of a few days at most and maybe less then an hour.

However pretty much every Futurist who disagrees with Pre-Trib founds that opposition on some clear timing statements in Matthew 24 and II Thessalonians 2 that place the "Abomination of Desolation" before any of the Parousia events.  But doesn't my chronological interpretation place that in the middle of the Parousia?

Strictly speaking The Abomination of Desolation is not in Revelation Chapter 13.  That chapter is about the deification of "The Beast" broadly speaking, and mentions an "Image" that it doesn't tie to any particular geographical location.  But there is no illusion to anything happening in specifically Jerusalem or any other city.

Paul associated the Man of Sin showing himself to be God in The Temple with his revealing.  I have already argued for the removal of restraint being in Revelation 9, and after that comes the first clear reference to The Beast in chapter 11 when he's described as ascending out of the Abyss and kills the Two Witnesses.  Chapter 13 is just his formal introduction.

"But didn't you just earlier this month make a post arguing the "Great City" of chapter 11 isn't Jerusalem?"

Again that was a post made for arguing rhetorically with Preterists and anyone else who thinks "Great City" must always be referring to the same city every time it's used.  If the name of Babylon doesn't prove anything geographically neither does being tied to the Crucifixion.

However I also no longer necessarily think the AoD has to happen in Jerusalem.  In fact I'm definitely coming to highly doubt a proper Third Temple will be built at all.  There are aspects of the Historicist interpretation of II Thessalonians 2 and Daniel 7 that make sense to me.

However I don't think it's already fulfilled by The Pope or even the Byzantine Emperors I've talked about playing devil's advocate with them.  It will be something unmistakable when it happens, in such a way that even if it happens nothing like how any of us expected we will still not doubt that it just happened when it does.

Maybe it'll happen in Jerusalem, maybe it'll involve a Third Temple, but what's important is it will not be debatable anymore once it happens, that's the key point of why Paul was bringing it up, it obviously hadn't happened yet, and if it obliviously hadn't happened yet then it hasn't happened yet now.

Or maybe the Son of Perdition being "revealed" is really when he kills the Witnesses in Revelation 11:7, given that is the first time Revelation is definitely indisputably referring to that individual.

An Argument for Zion of Revelation 14 being Earthly Zion

First of all if you're seeing this as a complete reversal of a certain post I made earlier this month, that was a post directed at Preterists rhetorically assuming certain Preterist presuppositions.

In Revelation 14 I definitely believe the Parousia is already in progress.  And the only apparent smoking gun that this Zion must be in Heaven not on Earth is the 144 Thousand being "Before The Throne".  But remember Daniel 7:9-14 is the foundational Hebrew Bible source material for how Jesus defined the Parousia, and that passage seems to involve YHWH's flying Chariot-Throne.  It could be The Throne is The Cloud or on it.

Hebrews 12:22 is the other major New Testament basis for a "Heavenly Zion", though it's actually Jerusalem Paul calls Heavenly there.  Paul does sometimes use Heavenly as a synonym for Spiritual.  That passage is about how we are Citizens of The Kingdom regardless of where we dwell or who controls any Earthly location.  And also about how the architectural final form of the City is currently under construction in Heaven.  It doesn't contradict the connection to a Terrestrial location.

Psalm 48 can be seen as the Old Testament basis for a Heavenly Zion since it links Zion to the "sides of the north" a term also used in Isaiah 14 about Satan's yet future fall from heaven.  But I think the relation of geographical terms in both these passages may be complicated.  If The Tabernacle of David were located where I currently hypothesize it was then it was indeed on a slope north of The Mountain's Summit.  And "Sides of the north" is used in some translations of where Beth-Togarmah is located in Ezekiel 38.  Since I believe Isaiah 14 is about End Times events it could refer to Satan and The Beast wanting to set up their own Throne on Mt Zion which will ultimately fail.

I should perhaps mention here how I don't think Zion was the location most people think it was.  I have argued on this Blog that Bethlehem is the City of David.  My current theory is that the Summit of Mt Zion is where the Mar Elias Monastery currently sits which is the highest elevated summit in the region, and I have a hunch that the Tabernacle of David stood where the fifth century Church of Mary's Seat was located to the north of the summit.  But even if that theory is wrong my position on this chapter doesn't change.

And thus this view can be compatible no matter what city you think Babylon and/or The Great City is.

It is frequently assumed that the Mount of Olives is where Jesus will Return to.  Now it could be involved in how all this plays out.  But the Biblical basis for it is weak in my view.  In Acts 1 what the Angel says is about Jesus Returning the same way He Ascended, it's not meant to be about the location of a landing spot.  And I think a strong argument can be made that the Zechariah 12-14 was fulfilled in 30 AD.  Still it could be He returns first to the Mount of Olives to begin the Resurrection there and then sets up His Throne on Zion.

It is often assumed the reference to "Heaven Opened" in Revelation 19 means a door opening in heaven and that the Rider on the White Horse and His Army are traveling from heaven to earth at that moment.  But that's not necessarily borne out by the text either.

Earlier in Revelation 11 a reference to Heaven being "shut up" is agreed by all to be a reference to it not raining, showing how the Witnesses echo the ministry of Elijah and using language from 1 Kings 8:35, 2 Chronicles 6:26 and 7:17.  In Genesis 7-8 the Windows of Heaven being Opened is terminology linked to the flood waters.  So this Terminology in Revelation 19 could be linked to the "latter rain" of Joel 2, or 2 Peter 3 talking about how the End Times Judgment will echo The Flood but with Fire instead of Water.  But I also now believe the ministry of the Witnesses is the same 1260 days as the Woman hiding in the Wilderness, so Heaven being Opened in Revelation 19 is the end of their shutting up of heaven.

This further proves the point that both Pre-Tribers and Post-Tribers are wrong on Revelation 19 being in any way the Second Coming, this is happening after He's already Returned.

My belief in The Man-Child being The Church means I see The Rapture as a second fulfillment of many Prophecies that were also about the Birth of Christ, like Micah 4 and 5.

The Kingdoms of The World are Become The Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ

This statement made right after the Seventh Trumpet sounds is why Post-Tribbers and others who want to play around with the Chronology of Revelation think the Seventh Trumpet can't sound till right when The Millennium begins.

Last year I made a post arguing for The Last Trumpet being the Yom Kippur Jubilee Trumpet.

The Jubilee Trumpet doesn't actually sound when the Jubilee begins, it sounds about six months earlier on Yom Kippur to announce the coming Jubilee Year.

This could become an argument for a Mid Seventh year Rapture view, or we could argue in this typpological context one half year become three and a half years.

The Parusia events do happen to start happening immediately.  But the full realization of Christ taking over the World is still yet future.

Revelation 14:14-20, The Parusia and the Wrath of God.

Post-Tribbers often tend to see The Second Coming and The Rapture in the same parts of Revelation that I do, and then some more.  And that is why their view is dependent on messing around with the Chronology of the book.

That includes this part of Revelation 14.  The Son of Man riding on a Cloud, is a clear identifying characteristic of The Parusia in both Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4.  Plus people use the Kingdom Parables to justify associating Harvest imagery with The Rapture.

So naturally I've seen Post-Tribbers say they specifically believe this event is the same as or happens at the same time as the Revelation 19 event.

Now the core premise of this Blog has become that The Book of Revelation should be interpreted Chronologically.  I've done numerous posts on that subject.  But even if I abandoned that, even if I recanted every prior post on the Revelation Chronology tag.  Even if I accepted a claim that the earlier parts of this same Chapter didn't happen right before or at the same time as this part.  I would still have to say it's absurd to place this event after The Bowls of God's Wrath are poured out.

Verse 19 says "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.".  This is clearly the beginning of the Bowls of Wrath narrative, this is the origin of what fills those bowls.  Not matter how literally or symbolically you interpret that imagery this chronological fact about it is clear.

So even if one doesn't believe the whole book is Chronological, there is still no denying that 14:14-16:21 are a continuous narrative, a narrative about The Wrath of God.  Just read all that remembering that our modern chapter and verse divisions weren't originally there, and it should be self evident.

So as far as I'm concerned you simply can't agree that this is part of the Parusia/Rapture, yet continue to insist that the Parusia/Rapture doesn't happen till after all the Bowls have been poured out.

Now from there we can dispute how long it takes the seven bowls to be poured out, and then how much time there is between the last bowl and Revelation 19.    I have myself become increasingly flexible on that.

I've decided the point of my Midway-Point Rapture view is not it being the literal exact halfway point on a timeline, but that it's between the Trumpets and the Bowls.

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls.

I didn't grow up being taught any particular view of the End Times, I'm one of those who never knew what the Rapture (or really Secret Rapture) was until the Left Behind books became a pop culture phenomenon.

In my first memories of reading the Book of Revelation, I was admittedly skimming it over and not digesting most of the details.  But while much I didn't understand, it's chronology never confused me.  It seemed clearly like John was being shown a sequence of events, mostly in Heaven but to varying degrees correlating to events on Earth.

I never bought Pre-Trib.  For a long time, until not long before I created  this blog, I was essentially Post-Trib.  But what caused me to become alienated from mainstream Post-Trib was how they scrambled the Chronology of Revelation.  But at least they're not like Pre-Wrath saying their view is Chronological when it clearly is not.

But my personal perspective aside, there are clear textual reasons why the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are clearly threes sequences that follow each other and can't in any way be happening at the same time.

Revelation 8 begins with the Seventh Seal being opened and then clearly depicts the Seven Trumpets being given to their angels as a result of the Seventh Seal being opened.

Revelation 11:15-18 begins to describe what happens when the Seventh Trumpet is sounded.  And one statement is "Thy Wrath is Come".  In context what the grammar and meanings of these words is saying in both Greek and King James English is NOW his Wrath is Come at the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet, Biblically trumpets are warnings and this was the last warning.

Pre-Tribbers and Pre-Wrathers (and also Post-Tribbers) want to insist we were already in God's Wrath at least in the Trumpets because "obviously that's God's Wrath".  But that isn't sound doctrine.  Releasing demonic entities in Revelation 9 isn't God's Wrath.

The Bowls are defined as God's Wrath, so not even one could have been poured out before the Seventh Trumpet.

The only time Wrath is mentioned before the Seventh Trumpet is sounded is in Chapter 6, after the Sixth Seal is opened.  And it's not the narrative voice, or God, or anyone in Heaven, or any Prophet saying it.  It was said by the kings and other powerful men of the Earth.  They think this is God's Wrath.

In Anime analysis videos much is made of how things in early episodes are meant to take on a new meaning when re-watched.  Well this part of Revelation chapter 6 I think has a similar effect.  That these worldly people think they are already in God's Wrath is hilarious when you know what's coming, they have no idea.

And I have another post on that it's perfectly fine to view some plagues as happening more then once.

The Book of Revelation repeats many things from earlier in The Bible.

This is well known, people have written much on how it's judgments echo the Plagues inflicted upon Egypt before The Exodus.  And other repeats are noted too.

So why do these "Revelation obviously isn't Chronological" people have so much trouble accepting that some of these things will happen more then once over the course of the Time of Jacob's Trouble? 

Remember during the Wandering God inflicted Plagues upon Israel in their disobedience.

Jesus refereed to Earthquakes, plural, in the End Times in Matthew 24.  Revelation always seems to refer to a single Earthquake at a time, but does so five times.  But Post-Tribbers seems to think they are all different accounts of the same Earthquake.  So when does Jesus' plural Earthquakes happen?

Trumpets Biblically are Warnings, there are some compelling reasons to see each Trumpet as a warning of each Bowl, but there are also flaws with that.  But the point here is the parallels that exist are all the Trumpets being lesser.  A Third of the water turns to Blood in the Trumpets, all of it does in the Bowls, same with the Darkening of the Sun and Moon.  Those can't both be true at the same time.

And the Moon turning to Blood is NOT the same thing as it being darkened or not giving her light.  The shade of Red that Blood is is actually a very bright shade.  I don't think this is a Lunar eclipse, it may or may not have some natural process involved.  But Dark means it is not currently giving or reflecting any light.  Meaning the only color it could be is black, which is actually the absence of color.

Now I've seen Post-Tribbers assert "how can a Star fall in the one Trumpet in Revelation 8, and a third be Darkened in another, and then a third fall from Heaven in Revelation 12, if they all fell to the Earth in in the Sixth Seal in Revelation 6?".

This was not asked by a Flat Earther, but it directly relates to how Flat Earthers abuse the concept of "literal" interpretation when it comes to things like the Stars.  And I already did a post on dealing with what The Bible says about Stars.  "Star" to the Ancients didn't mean the modern Scientific definition.  Revelation 6 is poetically describing a Meteor Shower, Revelation 12 could be another Meteor Shower.  And Wormwood is a Comet.  None of this contradicts a Chronological interpretation of Revelation.

A Pre-Tribber on interpreting Revelation Chronologically

They and various forms of "Mid-Trib" like me seem to be the only ones inclined to take it Chronologically.

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/reading-revelation-chronologically/

Reading Revelation Chronologically

Wednesday, May 25th, 2016

• End Times
• Prophecy

Q. John’s gospel is the least chronological of the four gospels. Events are out of order and a very unequal amount of verses are applied to certain events versus other events in Jesus’ life. So it would seem unlikely then that John’s book of Revelation would be completely in time order. Perhaps some parts of the Revelation are chronological, and others are placed thematically. This is a critical issue, since from reading your material it appears the primary basis of your belief in pre-Trib is because Rev 4 & 5 in chapter order precede the rest of the book. Can you please enlighten me as to how you see it and why?

A. I’ve read lots of opinions about whether the Revelation is chronological or not, and the only exceptions to a chronological reading that makes sense to me are;

1) John could only write about one thing at a time so there are places where multiple things are happening together and he could only describe them one at a time,

2) where he brought a particular subject to its conclusion before back tracking to pick up another train of thought, or

3) where he’s providing some background to help us understand something. These are all obvious. Otherwise, I don’t think it makes sense to depart from a chronological reading.

It’s not fair to compare the Revelation with John’s gospel. In the Revelation John was essentially “taking dictation” from the Lord, and the writing style is so different that some scholars debate whether he even wrote it.

Finally, there are several much stronger proofs for a pre-trib rapture that make a chronological reading of Revelation unnecessary to support the case for one.

My first objection is that taking it chronologically inherently helps Pre-Trib, Pre-Trib sees The Rapture not in Revelation at all so really it's chronology should be irrelevant to them.  I see it clearly in the middle of the book, from the latter part of Chapter 11 through chapter 14, with the key moment being The Rapture of the Man-Child.

1), His intent was clearly to try as much as possible to write things down as he saw them.

2), Certain subjects ARE clearly scattered about, the book is clearly not organized by subject, even The Beast gets a reference before his formal introduction.

3), This I assume is mainly about the mystery of the Seven heads, and maybe the various time statements.

The reason Revelation's Authorship confuses people is indeed because it was really written by Jesus with John as his stenographer.  It's actually wrong to say Jesus wrote none of The Bible.

Since Jack Kelly knows John's Gospel is the least Chronological, I wonder if he is wiling to admit Jesus ministry wasn't three years but only one tops.

The Great City, can there be only one?

In my study where I refuted Chris White's Mystery Babylon theory, I didn't go in depth on the fact that Jerusalem and Babylon are both called the "Great City".  I just repeated what Chuck Missler likes to say about "The Bible being a tale of two cities" and left it at that.

That is the main weakness of that study, that the main direct technical argument I just sort of brushed off.  So today I want to get into that more.  Then I will go back and edit that older post to include a link to this one.

In the Greek this term is "Megale Polis".  This phrase isn't used in any other books of The Bible, only Revelation.  But it's general Greek usage does not at all suggest it is a term that can apply to only one single city.  In fact in Greece there were 40 places called "Megale Polis".  The only time it's used in a sense of being unique to only one city was the city that was actually named that, (Megalopolis, founded in 371 BC) rather then it being only a title of a city.  And I don't think anyone thinks Revelation is talking about Megalopolis.

In Chapter 11 the term is used of current terrestrial Jerusalem, and in 21 is used for New Jerusalem.  In Chapters 14, 17 and 18 it is indisputably used of Babylon.

Proof that the book intends to apply that term to more then one city is in chapter 16 starting in verse 17, when the Seventh Bowl of God's Wrath is poured out.

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.  And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.  

 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.  And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The middle Paragraph above is verse 19.  It makes little grammatical and no narrative sense for the Great City and Babylon to be the same city in that context.  The Great City was just judged, and now after that is done God is turning his attention to Babylon, setting the stage for the next two chapters.

People who play fast and lose with the Chronology of Revelation may try to argue that chapters 17 and 18 are merely describing in more detail what happened in 16:19.  Besides that simply not fitting the grammar of what the text says, Revelation 18 foretells Babylon ceasing to be a City at all, that land to never be inhabited again.  Not at all the same thing as being divided into three parts, but rather mutually exclusive.

I think the Great City being divided into three parts is Jerusalem, it fits Jerusalem's history perfectly.

I'd bet that there are Historicists saying this was fulfilled already by modern Jerusalem's division into "Quarters" because calling them "quarters" is silly when the Armenian quarter is so small and the Armenians are Christians.  What it was was a dividing of Jerusalem between the 3 major Religions that consider it sacred.  But that would not be a truly literal fulfillment of the prophecy, Revelation is talking about a physical division, not man made borders.

The Seventh Bowl Earthquake is ultimately a World Wide event, but it's relevance to Jerusalem I think corresponds to Zechariah 14:4.  As that Earthquake like this one follows the reference to Armageddon.

The River that will flow from Ezekiel's Temple will at some point split into two rivers, one emptying into the Mediterranean and the other into the Dead Sea.  It could be the same cracks in the Earth that divide Jerusalem in three are also what causes the River to become two rivers.

Thus Revelation 16:19 is proof that Mystery Babylon is NOT Jerusalem. More evidence against Babylon being anything but a City in Mesopotamia can be found Here and Here.

Moon being like Blood and not giving Light are not the same thing

They are mutually exclusive.

Pre-Wrathers keep referring to the "Celestial disturbance event" as if there is only one.  Revelation has multiple celestial disturbance events, and Pre-Wrathers claim to like me interpret Revelation Chronologically, or at least that the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are successive judgments not different looks at the same thing like Post-Tribbers tend to.

They want to see references outside Revelation to the Moon being darkened as being the Sixth Seal, even though the Moon isn't darkened there.  Later the Sun, Moon and Stars are partially darkened by the 4th Trumpet event, then for 40s days the sun, moon and stars are fully blacked out in the 5th Trumpet event by the smoke.  Then later the Fifth Bowl of God's Wrath is what I believe Isaiah 13 means by the Sun and Moon not giving their light at the time Babylon falls in Revelation 18.

Every Pre-Wrather I know is against the Blood Moon theory, Chris White's debunking of it I've recommended repeatedly.  Yet they use the modern Scientific explanation for what a Lunar Eclipse is to justify saying the Moon being like Blood and not giving light are the same.

During a Lunar Eclipse the Moon is darker then usual but it is giving light, it is only on a Solar Eclipse or New Moon (day before the Biblical New Moon) that the Moon gives no light, if you want to look for a normal astronomical event for that.

If the Moon has any color at all it is by definition giving light.  There is no Color without light.

Here is the thing though, Blood is actually a very bright red.  And when I was observing the last of the overly hyped Tetrad a few days ago I kept feeling it was not a shade of Red I'd describe as like Blood at all.

What's funny is the Full Moon a month prior to this, at the end of August looked inexplicably Red, and I know others observed the same thing.  That was a shade of Red I'd consider Blood Red, but there was no Lunar Eclipse that day.  I still don't understand what caused that.

If there is a naturalistic explanation at all for what happens to the Sun and Moon in the Sixth Seal it is probably ash entering the air form a Volcanic Eruption, which has been documented to cause the Moon to look bright Red in the past.  The reason that happens is all about the light the Moon is giving.  And Joel 2's account of this event clearly alludes to Volcanoes.

But even accepting that flawed logic for saying a Blood Moon could be a darkened moon.  That doesn't change that there are other places in Revelation far more explicitly about the Moon being darkened.  Yet Pre-Wrath and other mistaken views are dependent on insisting that the Moon being darkened in Matthew 24 can ONLY correspond to the Sixth Seal.

This post is elaborating on things I said in my first Sixth Seal post.  And also ties into this post.

The Revealing, The Rapture and The Abomination of Desolation

In the inaugural post of this Blog I argued that the Abomination of Desolation must happen before The Rapture.  Latter I argued that maybe not, then I did another post going back to my original position but without really refuting the reasons I gave previously.

I have changed my mind again, I think this is my last change on this subject because I now feel I've unraveled the mysteries that confused me before.

Let me clarify, the way II Thessalonian 2 refutes Pre-Tribe remains fully in tact.  The Abomination incident is mentioned there but it's strictly only his Revealing that must happen before The Rapture.  And before that the restrainer must be removed.

I Believe as the new name for this Blog declares, but I've always felt this way, that the events in Revelation will happen in the order they are described, with few exceptions like referencing time periods that span 3.5 years.  And Revelation does include examples of God speaking past tense of this yet to happen like Babylon's fall in chapter 14.  But I firmly reject the idea of it starting once or multiple times.

Other Bible Prophecies are snap shots of the End Times that unless they contain clear timing statements are not chronological, but Revelation's Purpose is to tell us how it all fits together.

Only other single visions even close to being large enough to consider worth taking as strictly chronologically as Revelation, and that are irrefutably End Times.  Are the last 2 visions that make up Ezekiel.  34-39 and 40-48.  Those don't conflict with Revelation's chronology in my view, I see 40-48 as correlating to Revelation 21-22.  And I see 37-39 as Revelation 20.  What's before that can fit the Day of Wrath.

Revelation 9 is when the Restrainer is removed.

When The Beast kills the Witnesses is when he's irrefutably revealed.  That is the first time Revelation irrefutably mentions The Beast, identifying him with earlier personages is valid speculation but still ultimately speculation.  Now I'm unsure if the Beast that does is the first or second, I believe both Ascend out of the Bottomless Pit.  That's a minor issue however, since I now think the second beast may be the more important one anyway.

Three and a half days latter they are resurrected, then they ascend into Heaven and the Gentile Population of Jerusalem repents and believes.

Then the Seventh Trumpet sounds, and then Revelation 12 depicts The Rapture.  Then Revelation 13 depicts The Abomination of Desolation.

I'm still open the possibility of it happening first, my point here is there is room for interpretation on it.  If it does happen first it happens very close, the same day the Witnesses were killed would be the longest before that it could happen.  The chronology I suggested in this post remains compelling to me.

Here is the thing however.  When we get to Revelation depiction of The Abomination of Desolation incident in Chapter 13 Verse 6.

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven."

"Them that dwell in heaven" can only make sense to be as the already Raptured Church.  Blaspheming Angels wouldn't be such a big deal.

No Preterist model views Revelation chronologically

In fact their chronology of Revelation is more garbled then Post-Tribbers or Pre-Wrathers.

Pre-Wrathers love to say they interpret Revelation chronologically not like Post-Tribbers.  They may view the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls as concurrent.  But to them what Revelation 13 describes pretty much happened during the Seals.

I did a post in the past on how Preterist are a lot like Pre-Tribbers on I Thessalonians 4.  So I figured I'd be helpful to point out how they are like Post-Tribbers on Revelation.

My view is that the events in Revelation with few clearly defined exceptions happen in the order John sees them happen.

Wrath and the Seventh Trumpet

Pre-Wrathers and many others with mistaken views need to claim that the Trumpets are all God's Wrath insist that in Revelation 11 when the Elders and the Four Cherubim say "and thy wrath is come".  That the Greek should be translated "has come" or "has already come".

My argument however is it simply doesn't matter how past tense the grammar is.  Everything here is in reference only to the Seventh Trumpet and what happens immediately after it's sounded.  Nothing said here was true before the Seventh Trumpet.

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

How much of that was already happening during the earlier Trumpets? Wrath is the only one anyone would even try to argue for.

Trumpets Biblically are warnings, the Last Trumpet is the Last Warning, that's when the Parousia happens and the Day of The LORD begins.

The fact is, Wrath has already come at the Seventh Trumpet, but it would be inaccurate to say that before the Seventh Trumpet.

That the Bowls are described as "finishing" or "completing" God's Wrath is seen as evidence God's Wrath begins sooner.  Fine, it begins with the 7th Trumpet and is finished by the Bowls.

Does Revelation start over in Chapter 12?

Some people have Revelation completely non-chronological.  But among those who choose only one place to see it as Rebooting, the by far most popular place is the start of Revelation 12.

"We are back at the birth of Christ" they will say.  I no longer agree with that assumption, but even if John is seeing Signs that represent some already past events.  I believe these Signs will one day be seen in the Heavens, not just by John but by everyone.  Luke 21:25 foretells "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars".

Matthew and Mark has Jesus refer to "The Sign of The Son of Man" being seen in the Heavens.  I have two theories on what that correlates to in Revelation. One I've said before is the Ark being seen in the Heavenly Temple in Revelation 11.  But another option is perhaps the Signs John sees in Revelation 12, the Birth of the Son of Man/Seed of The Woman.

Again, both the Chapter and Verse divisions are not in the original text. If you read Revelation from the sounding of the 7th Trumpet on till when The Dragon is cast down without letting the man made divisions effect your perception, I don't think it's possible to fail to see they're all one continuous sequence of events.  I will provide an easy way to do that at the end of this post.

Revelation 12:1 in the Greek text begins with Kai, Kai is translated in the KJV "and there" but in fact "and then" would be more accurate here, the word is translated "then" elsewhere in the KJV often.  It's also the exact same word that begins 12:3.  That word is how many verses in Revelation begin, including the last to chapter 11 and all of them in chapter 12 and most in 12.

Some defending the idea of Revelation starting over and showing us the same events from a "different angle" mention that we have Four Gospels, and that Chronicles repeats much of the history from Samuel and Kings.

Those are different books.  And when we do see different events from different angles within the same book on the subject of prophecy they're defined as distinct separate visions, usually given at different times.  Like the many visions Daniel has (or interprets for others).  And I indeed do believe we see most of what's in Revelation from different angles in other Prophetic books.

Revelation however is one continuous vision.  John was taken out of the Earth to the Heavenly Throne Room and is walked through everything that will happen step by step.  Revelation ceases to be confusing when people just accept that and interpret other Bible Prophecies chronology based on where John explicitly identifies them in Revelation.  Including that when the Son of Man comes on a cloud is in Revelation 14.

Even if some start over were the case, we're clearly caught up to the midway point and the Abomination of Desolation when The Woman flees as synchronization with Matthew 24 shows.  Her time in the wilderness is clearly the second half not the first.  It's generally the desire to justify putting the Trumpets in the second half that comes from this specific start over theory.  I've dealt elsewhere with why the Trumpets and Bowls being concurrent doesn't work.

Revelation 11:14-12:12

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, saying, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
And then a great wonder appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.  And then appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

The Trumpets and Bowls

Those who want to insist the Trumpets and Bowls are the same events from different angles, make a strong argument when they point out certain parallels between the 2nd, 3rd 5th, 6th and 7th of each.

Well they have no parallel for the 1st, they're not the same at all.  And the 4th is the opposite effect.  For 2 and 3 it's clear the Trumpets are only partial while the Bowls are complete.  And for 5 and 6, the parallels are small superficial details of larger complex situations.

To a certain extend I don't think these parallels are coincidences.  As I said before Trumpets are warnings, I think each Trumpet is a warning of each Bowl.  And the Seven Angles may well be the same Angels connected to each.  This is a conjecture, but I think maybe each Trumpet is 42 months before each Bowl.

The First Bowl of Gods Wrath and The Mark of The Beast

Revelation 16:2

"And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

The Pre-Wrath view is that the 70th Week is already over when this happens, we're already in the mysterious extra month of Daniel 12.

I feel the link the first Bowl has to the Mark supports my view that the Seven Bowls span the second half of the 70th week.  I believe this happens only a matter of months at the very most after the Mark is instituted.

I think it's some sort of physical side effect of taking The Mark itself.

Revelation and the rest of The Bible, how do they interact?

Chuck Missler likes to say "Everything in the Book of Revelation is in Code, and the Code is always explained somewhere else in The Bible". And he also likes to say that an in depth study of Revelation will lead you to every other book of The Bible.

That is all very true, you won't fully understand Revelation without understanding the other Bible Passages it alludes to.  But the reverse is equally if not more true.

Daniel was told in chapter 12 verse 4: "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and the knowledge shall be increased."

In Revelation chapter 22 verse 10 John is told: "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

Apokalupsis (ap-ok-al'-oop-sis); means Revelation, or Unveiling. The Book begins with "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants".

Ultimately, I don't believe the rest of The Bible explains Revelation quite as much as I believe Revelation explains the rest of The Bible.

That doesn't mean nothing was understood before. Certainly the message of Salvation can be understood without Revelation. However the more mystical and cryptic aspects of The Bible, especially of End Times Prophecy, are finally fully explained in Revelation, the last book of The Bible to be written.

I believe Revelation is essentially a sort of encryption key, that clarifies what was unclear before.

One interesting example is Satan. Without Revelation Chapter 12, we wouldn't know for certain that Satan, The Devil, the Serpent of Genesis 3. And the Angelic being destined to fall from Heaven in Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 are the same personage. But verse 9 makes it clear "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world". And indeed Jewish traditions do fail to connect those figures.

This is key to how much of my understanding of Revelation and End Times Prophecy is different, even from others who hold the same basic view of things like The Rapture that I do. To many other people, regardless of their basic Rapture position or doctrinal bias, use the other passages to interpret Revelation, when it should be the reverse.

People have preconceived notions that certain Prophecies are about the Millennium, so they write off how John clearly draws on those prophecies for The Eternal Kingdom. Similarly with Gog and Magog. I used to be with most fellow Futurists on this being a Pre or During the Tribulation event. But Chris White's discussion of the subject has convinced me of the Post Millennial view.

Revelation is generally less detailed then other Prophecies about the same things. And this lack of details often helps people justify separating the events. But to me the key facts in Revelation are enough to show how a certain event fits in the grander scheme, then the other prophecies we go to to learn the fuller details.

And then there is the Olivite Discourse of Matthew 24. Most Post-Tirbbers and Pre-Wrath supporters feel it's Jesus who's chronology of events should be taken at face value. And even Pre-Tirbbers sort of.

But I see the fact that Jesus is summarizing all of this material in 1 or 2 Chapters (Chapter 25 is all parables, even less Chronologically definitive). Revelation is what clarifies how things happen.

Jesus's description of his Parousia, has parallels to events of both the Sixth Seal and Seventh Trumpet (but I find the Sixth Seal parallels over stated). Post-Tribbers garble the clear chronology of Revelation to make those the same event. While Pre-Wrath supporters simply ignore or write off the Seventh Trumpet's parallels and insist the first time you see any events resembling the Parousia description is where it happens.

My view is different. The Sixth Seal only has very overstated parallels to the cosmic/natural disaster type signs. So I believe it marks the beginning of the signs of his coming, but those signs continue through the Seventh Seal and the Trumpets.

But the Seventh Trumpet and Revelation 14 are where the far stronger more definitive parallels are. And Paul's key descriptions of the Rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 include none of the Sixth Seal parallels. Only things that Parallel the Seventh Trumpet from Revelation 11, and also Revelation 14.

And the chronology of Revelation I feel clearly places those events at basically the Mid-Way point of the 70th Week. Because in Chapter 11 the Seventh Trumpet is proceeded by Three and a Half Years references that correlate to the first half of the 70th Week. And then in Chapters 12 and 13 is followed by Three and a Half Years references that correlate to the second half.

And Revelation only defines the Seven Bowls as being God's Wrath. The use of the word Wrath in the Sixth seal account is only by fallible human characters.

The chronology of Revelation in terms of the 70th week of Daniel is this.

Chapters 6-11 are the First Half.
Chapters 12 and 13 are a symbolic summery of all History, but with a focus on the Mid-Point drama.
Chapters 14-19 are the Second Half.

I know Revelation isn't 100% purely chronological, certain single statements span an entire half of the 70th week. But there is a basic chronology to it that clearly places the mid way point between the Trumpets and Bowls. This is a problem for some people however, who have tried to argue that we're at the halfway point at the Sixth Seal, or that we're already at the end of the 70th week when the 7th Trumpet sounds, but those argument always seem forced.

In Revelation 8 there is no gap between the Seals and the Trumpets, the Trumpets and the Censer both come from the Seventh Seal. But between The Seventh Trumpet and The Bowls is the entire narrative of Revelation 12, 13 and 14.

I think it's telling that in Revelation 11 the Seventh Trumpet is preceded by two reference to three and a half years, that clearly correlate to the first half of the 70th week. I know some see those as the second half already, but they describe conditions that can only apply before the Abomination of Desolation. Then in 12 and 13 is followed by three references to a three and a half year period that are clearly the second half.

So my point is, if the chronological face value of Revelation and the other Bible passages it draws on seem to conflict. Remember it was Revelation that was written to explain the rest, not the other way around.