A Millennium already past

This post shall be me playing Devil's Advocate with Post-Millenialists and Partial Preterists, by arguing that their eschatological position does not necessarily require allegorizing the time period of The Millennium.

There is a common misnomer out there that believing in a Literal Thousand Years means believing The Kingdom of that time period ends at some point, which is why you occasionally see an argument that the Nicene-Constantinople Creed's quotation of Gabriel in Luke 1:33 somehow was specifically a refutation of Pre-Mil.  However the only thing Revelation 20 explicitly says happens exactly a Thousand years later is Satan being let out of the Abyss, he then stirs up Gog and Magog and they besiege the "Beloved City" however their siege fails.  Revelation 21 and 22 are about the separation between the spiritual and physical finally completely ending, not about a completely New Messianic Kingdom starting.  The Greek word translated New in those chapters isn't Neo which I wrote an entire post on already.

Now at face value it seems like everything from Satan being let loose to the White Throne Judgment happens pretty rapidly.  But that's because we're reading a summary, maybe it will happen quickly but it could theoretically all take decades, centuries or maybe even another thousand years to play out.

So Post-Mils and Partial Preterists do have the option to consider identifying The Millennium with an exactly one Thousand year time period of recorded Church Age history, and placing us right now in Revelation 20:9 with the "Camp of the saints" being understood spiritually rather then tied to a specific geographical location.

And in that context I have a few hypothetical models to propose, because even though I'm not Post-Mil currently I have considered it.  

But first I want to address how most of these models implicitly identity the "Hoards of Gog and Magog" with principally the Turks and perhaps by extension other Altaic peoples like the Mongols.  This part of Revelation is among the Bible passages that have been abused by White Supremacists so I want to make myself clear, IF any of these interpretations are true it's about the Turks having a specific role to play in God's plan, however I believe in Universal Salvation meaning all of them are still Children of Adam who God Loves as much as everyone else.  So do not use this material to justify being Racist.

Now on to the hypothetical Millenniums.

I place the end of the 70 Weeks of Daniel in 37 AD one Week following the Crucifixion, Resurrection and Pentecost in 30 AD, which I argued for on this blog years ago.  Low and behold 1037 AD is the beginning of the reign of Tughril the first Sultan of the Seljuk Turks.  It was under his leadership that the Turks first moved south of the Gates of Alexander into Persia.

However it was under Alp Arslan and Malik Shah that the Seljuk Turks first came into conflict with "Christendom" around 1070 AD.  The significance of 1070 minus 1000 I shouldn't need to explain to Preterists.

In 1135 AD a thousand years after the defeat of the Bar-Kochba Revolt Seljuk Ruler Imad Al-Din Zengi crossed the Eurphrates River.  1137-1144 contained other notable events.

Later in the early 1300s a Thousand years after Constantine is when the Ottomans under Osman I and Orhan and other Turkic Tribes conquered deeper into Western Anatolia capturing what had long been core Byzantine territories including the cities that housed the 7 Churches of Revelation 2-3. They besieged Nicaea just a few years after the one thousand year anniversary of the Council of Nicaea.  324 was the year Constantine defeated Licinius and began the founding of Constantinople, 1317-1326 was the Seige of Bursa which secured Ottoman control of most of Asia Minor with only the core area around Constantinople still free.

The decade from 380-390 is when Theodosius I firmly established Christianity as the State Religion of the Roman Empire.  Ticonius published the first real Post-Millennial interpretation of Revelation in 380.  A thousand years later 1380-1390 would be when the Ottoman Empire really began entering Europe.

The Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans was in 1454 BC, about 3 years following the Millennial Anniversary of the Council of Chalcedon.

There isn't a single event in the reign of Emperor Justinian that doesn't have it's Millennial anniversary during the reign of Suliman The Magnificent.  I actually already made a post on arguing for Bible Prophecy being fulfilled in the time of Justinian, that was mainly in the context of playing Devil's Advocate with Historicism, but it can be adapted for this purpose.

Some people have an odd fixation on viewing Bible Prophecy from an Anglo-Centric POV.  Interestingly the Christianization of the Anglo-Saxons was pretty complete by 640.  One thousand years later and 1640 is when the English Civil War starts.

The Languages of The Table of Nations

Genesis 10 says the Nations were divided according to their Languages, not bloodlines or DNA Haplogroups or geopolitical alliances, and then Genesis 11 explains how and why that happened.. If you study what the word "Ethnos" meant to the Ancient Greeks the same implication exists, language more then anything else decided what an "Ethnos" was, hence Barbarian originally meaning "non Greek speakers".  There is also Biblical Support for what god you worship being equally a factor, but that's where Liturgical Languages come in.

On the subject of Japheth, almost every Liturgical Language of the Eastern Orthodox Church is Indo-European, the only exception is the Georgian Language interestingly, Georgia's ancient demographic relationships to the lands around it are uniquely complicated.   

The big issue for trying to define Languages Biblically however is that the language of the ancient Canaanites is in the same Language Family as Hebrew, and very closely related in fact.  Thus modern Linguistic Scholars classify it as a Semitic Language.

When Abraham and his nephew Lot left Mesopotamia for Canaan and then lived there a few generations before the captivity in Egypt, I think it's highly probable they dropped the language of their homeland and adopted the language of the Canaanites, or became Bilingual.  And Isaiah 19 does in fact call the Language the Israelites and other YHWH worshipers were speaking the "Language of Canaan", so the Hebrew Bible itself defined this Language as belonging to Canaan not Heber.  It's not till the New Testament during Greco-Roman times we start seeing that language called Hebrew.

Basically I think Abraham's family did the same thing Diaspora Jews of the Christian Era have repeatedly done, developed a modified form of the language of the people they sojourned among.

The same thing happened with the Philistines, they did not originate as descendants of Canaan but wound up speaking a Canaanite language after settling in the Gaza strip. 

So the Language Family called Semitic today I think is Biblically Canaanite.  But scholars also use Canaanite for a specific subgroup of that family (the one that includes Hebrew), that sub group I shall call Sidonian since that Tribe had the most influence over that immediate area.

Looking at that break down of the Semitic Language Family I got from Wikipedia, it's clear that the Abrahamic Tribes came to dominate some entire Branches.  Nabatean and Aramaic both descend from Ishmael, Nabatean from Naboth, Kedar, Tema and Dumah, and than Aramaic from Hadad who was the name of the Patron deity of the earliest Aramaic speaking pagans.  And then Arabic originated among the sons of Abraham by Keturah, perhaps chiefly Dedan son of Jokshan..

How can Genesis 10 Aram not be the father of the Aramaic Language?  Well we know from Deuteronomy 26:5 that Abraham was sometimes called Aramean even though his direct Patralineal descent was from Arphaxad, I think some Ishmaelite Tribes may have had a similar idea.  

One detail of that Map is out of date and that's implying Aramaic first emerged in Mesopotamia, linguistic scholars now agree it first emerged in the general area of Damascus.  The city of Damascus proper wasn't truly founded till after 2000 BC and thus well after when I place even the latest events of Genesis.  So I think it was Ishmaelites who founded that city and named it after the Damascus of Genesis 14-15 possibly because it was in the same area.  Damascus is included in what I interpret to be the inheritance given to Ishmael, which is all of the Trans-Jordan part of what was Promised to Abraham.  Zobah is probably where these Ishmaelites of Hadad lived first however, and then 1 Kings 11 explains how an offshoot of their civilization became a King of Damascus.

We know from 1 Chronicles 5 that the Jetur and Naphish tribes of Ishmael also resided in South West Syria, the region known as Iturea in New Testament times.

Ugarit I suspect was the original city of the Girgashites, and then the Amorites are who you'd assume they are, The Torah does hint a few times that the Amorite Language is distinct from the Sidonian Canaanites.  Eteocyptriot if it's Semitic (there is dispute about it) may just come from Ugarites who colonized Cyrpus.  [Update: my perspective on the Girgashites has changed, and my view on Ugarit now is them being an Amorite colony.]

Ebla and the Hamathite are the same in my current theory.  Ironically the name Akkad itself is not Semitic, that city was originally Sumerian.  It was Sargon's Empire that imposed this Semitic Language on all of Mesopotamia, and that makes me suspect Azupiranu was the actual Akkadian name of Akkad.  Actually I think I should just identify the Hamathites as the ancestor of the entire Eastern branch.

The South Semites descended from various groups who traveled South and their history may be the subject of their own post in the future.  But it is worth noting that Josephus said Abraham's children by Keturah were given Arabia Felix. I think the entire South Semite region of that map is what the Egyptians called the Land of Punt.  Still I do think there may have been Canaanites who traveled there first.  Actually I have decided to identity the Sinite with the South Semitic branch because of the Sinim in Isaiah 49:12.

Qahtan is traditionally identified with Joktan, James A. Montgomery however has pointed out that the etymology of that doesn't work.  My theory that it refers to descent form Keturah isn't perfect either, but it at least begins with the right letter.  So the Sheba of Yeman I do now unlike in the past identify with the Keturite Sheba.  I also believe the Mineans of ancient Yemen were the descendants of Teman son of Eliphaz son of Esau.

Spiritual/Religious descent from the Canaanites is dead, any modern Neo-Pagan groups using Canaanite names for their gods have no actual continuity with them.  So the Churches who's Liturgical Rites are East Syraic/Aramaic I view as the Eschatological Assyria of Isaiah 11 and 19 alongside the Coptic Churches as Mizraim.

If the Semitic Language Family is Canaan then that fits it's larger Afroasiatic Family being Ham, with Mizraim as Egyptian, Cush the Cushitic Languages and the Berber Languages as Phut. 

"What about the Afroasiatic Families that don't fit into one of those four categories?" You may ask?  Maybe Ham did have more offspring then the four the Table of Nations specified, after all he does have the least mentioned.  Or maybe they can be explained by named Grandsons of Ham via Mizraim and Cush?   I also agree with those linguistic scholars who argue for adding the Nilo-Saharan languages to the Afro-Asiatic family.  Some linguists do think Chadic languages are closely related to Berber, which can make them also Phut.  And some think Omotic can be classified as Cushitic.

The Abyssinians (modern Ethiopia and Eritrea in Africa) are people speaking South Semitic Languages closely related to those of Ancient Yemen, but they were in antiquity surrounded by Cushetic speaking peoples on all sides.  I think they were the "Arabians that were near the Cushites" of 1 Chronicles 21:16 and that those captive wives and children of Jehoram (who I don't believe included any by Athaliah) may have became the actual ancestors of the Solomonic dynasty of Axum.

Another Biblical reference to this region may be the land "Beyond the rivers of Cush" in Isaiah 18, the rivers of Cush here I think are the rivers that flow into The Nile, what we call the White Nile, Blue Nile and the Atbarah also known as the Black Nile.

Some Canaanites may have came here first, certain Tribes in the region are traditionally believed to be Canaanite with three specific sons of Canaan cited.  However these are mostly tribes who spoke non Semitic Languages making me suspect the Abrahamites of the region often just called the local Heathens Canaanites, but it's still possible clans from those three sons were the first Semitic speakers in the region and their relationship to later groups was complicated.

The first Abrahamites of the region may have been Keturite Arabs, some scholars have speculated reasons to associate Epheh and Epher of Midian with Africa.  But I think some Edomite tribes may have came here too, cousins of Teman/Mineans.

What languages do I think descend from the non Abrahamic sons of Shem?  Well first of all Sumerian the language of Ur would probably be the language of the family of Arphaxad and perhaps others of Shem who lived in Mesopotamia (Abraham is also called an Aramean), and thus Sumer might have been named after Shem.  

And maybe the special language the Chaldean Magicians were using was actually Sumerian?  It could be the only reason the language we call Aramaic is called that is because of the assumption that the language being referred to in Daniel 2:4 is the same Language that the book is written in from that point till the end of chapter 7.

Elamite is the Language of Elam, yes that's right Elamite is not a Semitic Language but rather one seemingly unrelated to any other known languages.  Last year I made a post where I used that fact to justify making that Elam not Biblical Elam but I've now changed my mind on that.  Elamite may also be related to Dravidian according to some theories, and thus to Y Chromosome Haplogroup H, and thus maybe the modern Elamite Diaspora foretold by Jeremiah 49 are the Romani and related groups?

The Gutians have been theorized to descend from Aram's son Gether before. And I think the Lullubi could be of Aram's son Hul.  I also have a hunch the Hattic Language is Aram's son Mash. The Hurro-Uratian Language family including the Kassites could be the original language of the Assyrians and/or some Arameans before they adopted the Akkadian language.  Or maybe Lullubi is better positioned to be Asshur.

The Kartvelian language family including Georgian I think is Lud, since Y Haplogroup G ties the Georgians to Lydia implying they may descend from the original pre-Indo-Europeans of Lydia.  Or Lud could be another candidate for the Hattic Language.  Or Lud could be the other West Caucasian Language family.

Actually the above statement on Sumerian assumes the popular belief that Ur Kassidim was the Sumerian Ur.  I've increasingly come to favor a North of Harran location for Ur Kassidim.  Sumerian maybe simply was the Pre-Babel Language and the few people who kept the original language after the confusion were the ones who stayed in the general area.

The common theory on the Etymology of Eve/Havvah being the same as the Hurrian Goddess Hepat I find interesting.  It could be all or most other early Genesis figures had their names translated to an equivalent Semitic meaning but hers lacked an easy direct analogue so it was transliterated.  A Hurrian origin for Abraham would fit Urkesh being Ur Kassidim (but it could fit Ur being Urfa/Urshu later called Edessa as well).  That would make the Hurro-Uratian language family the one that comes from Peleg.  The Book of Jubilees says Arphaxad was allotted the region of Ararat itself, which is often identified with Urartu, the name of Aram/Arame is also associated with Urartu but I think that's the Aram of Genesis 22:21 not Genesis 10.  I also support the theory that the Kassadim/Chaldeans are the same people as the Kassites who's original language is theorized by some to have been of the Hurro-Urartian family, and I think they can be connected to the Chesed of Genesis 22:22.

Joktan's thirteen sons are a subject I need to completely rethink now.  I had made a post criticizing those who would place Joktan in the East rather then Yemen, but now I'm more open to that, maybe the Mormons are right about two Joktanite sons contributing to early Native American populations and giving his name to the Yucatan.  However the Mormon route would still be wrong, they would have to also contribute to Eat Asia.  Or maybe some did pass through Yemen then crossed the Bab-el-Mandeb and became ancestral to the non Afroasiatic Languages of Arica.

As a Young-Earth Creationist who still favors a Global Flood I would of course like to make Shem ancestral to all of the Languages that are neither Indo-European or Afroasiatic.  And even in the context of considering something similar to InspiringPhilosophy's view of the Flood but still more Literalist then him on other issues, we're really only allowed one Non-Noahtic Language, the Pre-Babel Language.

Some Hebrew Roots types may be hostile to the thesis of this post.  They are invested in Extra-Biblical traditions about Hebrew being the Pre-Flood language and becoming named after Heber when he didn't go along with Babel and/or Nimrod.  

And they could see the agenda behind arguing Abraham abandoned an earlier language for Hebrew as justifying Mainstream Gentile Christian Churches abandoning Semitic Languages for Indo-European ones.  And yes one of the lessons I think we should learn from this conclusion is that the true worship of YHWH is not tied to any single language.  But that's not what motived me to come to it.  I simply feel this is the most logical explanation of the evidence.

Japheth and the Eastern Orthodox Church

While speculation on the movements of people groups who tribally descend from the names given as sons and grandsons of Japheth in Genesis 10 will play a role in how I justify this thesis.  The theory itself is predicated on suggesting that your religion (or the religion of your culture if you yourself are non religious) should be more of a factor then your biological ancestry in deciding which Genesis Patriarch you are a Son of Biblically.

And with that in mind Genesis 9 pays special attention to Prophesying that the house of Japheth will one day dwell in the Tents of Shem, via the Tabernacle tents can Biblically be an idiom of religious observance.

By Eastern Orthodox I mean Christian Churches or Congregations that uphold all Seven Ecumenical Councils as authoritative but also descend from the Eastern rather than Western side of the 1054 Great Schism.

The people most universally agreed to descend from Japheth are the Hellens/Greeks via Javan.  Today that is Modern Greece and Cyprus, (and maybe also some nations north of Greece) and includes Hellenic minorities in Turkey, Alexandria, Antioch, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine & Jordan and other regions.  That happens to correspond to the generally most well known sub Church of the Eastern Orthodox, The Greek Orthodox Church.

The second most significant congregation of the Eastern Orthodox Communion is the Russian Orthodox Church.  I have a post strongly arguing that Magog is Russia.  In which I also placed Meshech and Tubal in Georgia and argued for associating Gomer with Ukraine and the House of Togarmah with people groups who lived in parts of Russia, Ukraine and Georgia.  Both of whom are also majority Eastern Orthodox nations.  But I’m now also thinking of perhaps placing Togarmah in Belarus which takes us even further North.  Note that "Mtskheta-Tbilisi" is in the official title of the Archbishop of Georgia.

Tiras the youngest son of Japheth is often identified with Thrace, the core Thracian nation of classical Antiquity was basically modern Bulgaria but at its greatest extent perhaps included pieces of every country bordering Bulgaria, all of which are Eastern Orthodox.  Actually I'm finding the Thracians might have extended more into Romania and Moldova more then I originally thought.

I think an argument could be made for identifying the Southern Carpathian Mountains with the Riphean Mountains of Ancient Hellenic Geography, which thus works for identifying Riphath with Romania and perhaps also Moldova.

Ashkenaz I kind of want to place near Ukraine in all of that context.  But I’m also thinking they could just be more Eastern Orthodox minorities within Turkey.  The City of Nicaea is on the shore of a Lake called Ascanius.  Nicaea was the seat of the 1st and 7th Ecumenical Councils, played a role in the First Crusade and was the capital of the Greek Eastern Empire while Constantinople was occupied by the Latins after the Fourth Crusade.  That could be a good argument for making the Patriarch of Constantinople himself the Patriarch of Ashkenaz.

Germanic Jews are called Ashkenazim because of a Rabbinic tradition of associating Ashkenaz with western Germany and Northern France.  But this tradition didn’t start till the 11th century and why it developed isn’t clear.  Before that Rabbinic traditions usually placed Ahskenaz first in Scythia (same region Josephus placed Magog, in modern Russia and Ukraine) and then later identified them with the Slavs.  The Slavic peoples are mostly Eastern Orthodox.  But I’m now tempted in this context to identify Ashkenaz as specifically Serbia and/or Bulgaria, placing them next to Riphath.

After giving it more thought I'm starting to lean towards Russia being Magog and the other Slavic Churches being Gomer and his Sons while the Romanian Orthodox Church is Tiras.  Or maybe Ecclesiastically the Slavs are just Gomer and Togarmah (or Gomer via Togarmah) as those names are paired together in Ezekiel 38 allowing Riphath to still be Romania.  And Tiras can be Albania since the Orthodox Church of Albania's bishop is called the Archbishop of Tirana, Durres and Albania.  Many Linguists do believe Albanian is the modern descendent of the language of the Ancient Thracians.

Madai is perhaps the most difficult son of Japheth to fit into this model.  We could say he represents Eastern Orthodox minorities who exist in former regions of the Medo-Persian Empire, like the Antiochian Orthodox Church and Eastern Orthodox Communities in Egypt, Sinai and Jerusalem.  But maybe also Madai being the most separated from the other sons of Japheth resulted in him being the only one left out and so Madai is still Zoroastrianism.  Either way the various Muslims of Iran I think are the spiritual descendants of Semites.

Apparently some Kurdish Christians have been Eastern Orthodox, though most have preferred the “Nestorian” Church.  And I have in the past on this blog speculated on the theory that the Kurds partly descend from the Medes, while also partly descending from Israelites.

What gives this thesis interesting implications for Prophecy is that I’ve kind of argued for the Eastern Orthodox Church possibly being the religion through which The Antichrist will rise to power in posts like the one on the Vicar of Christ Doctrine and where I argue for Justinian being a key to understanding Daniel 7.  Meanwhile I also have a post arguing for Iapetos a Greek form of Japheth being the name 666 points to.

I don’t want this theory being used to demonize the Eastern Orthodox however, as often happens with those looking to Catholicism or Islam for The Antichrist.  The Eastern Orthodox are fellow true Believers who I feel have at times been better stewards of The Gospel then any of us Western Christians.  If this is what happens it’ll be The Antichrist taking advantage of what they’ve gotten wrong as well as what they’ve gotten right.

David Bentley Hart is a Greek Orthodox whose main criticism of his own denomination is their tendency to wind up serving the state, which he sees manifesting today in how Putin is using the Russian Orthodox Church.  He doesn’t seem like someone who’s eschatology is Futurist and so wouldn’t endorse my theory for that reason but it’s something to note.

You might say that the Eastern Orthodox has been no less Statist than the Western Churches.  However the messy relationship between Church and State in Catholic and Protectant nations has mostly been Churches bending the state to their will, for better or for worse.  It is the Eastern Orthodox who have been most inclined to simply do what the Emperor says, even when that Emperor is ofically an Atheist like Stalin.

Below the Jump Break is some supplementary speculation that isn't actually important.

I'm sorry but Magog is Russia

I agree with Chris White on the timing of Ezekiel 38, and maybe also 39 or maybe 39 is Armageddon, but I certainly don’t believe either of these chapters can be Pre or Mid Trib.  So I’m not defending the identification of Magog (and/or some of it's allies) with the general region of Russia because I expect any Bible Prophecy using that name to be fulfilled in the near future.

I also agree with Chris White that Meshech and Tubal (and Rosh if it's a name) are in the area of Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan.  Tbilisi is the name of Georgia's Capital.  Actually it seems like Georgia alone (Iberia in antiquity) can account for both Meshech and Tubal.  (And Rosh is the one that's disputed whether it's a name at all.)  Attempts to make a Turkish identification for Tubal are entirely dependent on a nation called Tabal. Tabal might not even have been where most historians think it was, our documentation on it is sketchy, it could have always been the same place as the Georgian Tubal.  And this southern Anatolian location is essentially the same region that elsewhere is Biblicaly Tarshish.  Also clerically the head of the Georgian Orthodox Church's full title is Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia, the Archbishop of Mtskheta-Tbilisi and Metropolitan Bishop of Bichvinta and Tskhum-Abkhazia.

But it’s amusing to me how much White thinks those identifications debunk associating this prophecy with Russia.  Because in fact that region has a long history of being under the hegemony of Russia, the Tsars captured lost and recaptured that region multiple times, it was part of the USSR (in fact Stalin was ethnically Georgian) and now Putin is asserting his power over that region in multiple ways, last I checked he was still only militarily in Georgia but it’s safe to say all former USSR nations are part of his ultimate ambitions.  But again I’m not gonna predict how successful he will be in that, I only mention Putin here because he adds to the precedent of that region being one Russia seeks to control.

Josephus identified Magog with the Scythians.  And there is no dispute the region that is pointing to is north of the Black Sea, all in parts of modern Russia and Ukraine, another country that has frequently been part of the Russian empire and could be again in the future if Russia has its way.

Chris White and others attempt to deconstruct the significance of that identification by pointing out how “Scythians” was a term the Greeks used for many nomadic tribes of this region who may not have been as closely related to each other as the Greeks often assumed.  But that really doesn’t matter.  

1. Magog is not the only Genesis 10 name to have multiple people groups descended from them, remember all the nations are supposed to go back to these names and there are way more then 70.
Even if not all the Scythians were Magogite by strict patrilineal descent, Josephus is still clearly telling us this is the area to look for Magog in.

2. The fact is there is no solid alternative to what Josephus told us.  And the arguments for putting Magog in modern Turkey are entirely based on past attempts to interpret Ezekiel 38-39 Preteristically by identifying Gog with Gyges of Lydia.

White also tries to argue Josephus was simply wrong about the Scythians because "Modern Historians" view their migration pattern differently, but that's because "Modern Historians" don't believe in The Table of Nations.  For those of us who do believe in The Table of Nations (and even most Local Flood proponents need to include all the Indo Europeans among descendants of Noah) it's not just the Scythians who have to get to wherever their Secular History starts from Turkey, they all do.  Josephus says nothing however to particularly associate Magog or the Scythians with anything south of the Caucus Mountains, that part of his description of the migration is about Japheth in general.  In Wars 7.7.4 Josephus further identifies a group of Scythians as living by Late Meotis/Maeotis aka the Sea of Azov.

Meanwhile the Caspian Gates tradition shows that throughout Late Antiquity and the Early Medieval period north of the Caucus Mountains was where Christians, Jews and Muslims believed the hordes of Gog and Magog lived.  One of the most popular proposed locations for the Gates is in the Russian province of Dagestan. Another is the Darial Pass in Ossetia-Alania  The third is the Wall of Gorgon which is roughly the barrier between Iran and the former USSR republics east of the Caspian Sea, but I consider that the least likely of the three candidates since north of the main Biblical Lands is the point.

I don't believe the Gates of Alexander legend really happened because I don't believe Wall building was in Alexander's character.  But I favor the Darial Pass being the inspiration for the legend for three reasons.  1. It best fits the between two mountains imagery.  2.  The others weren't fortified till Late-Parthian or Sassanian times deep into the AD era while this one had fortifications going back to 150 BC.  Meaning only it was already fortified when Josephus referred to the Caspian Gates (Antiquities 18.4.4 and Wars 7.7.4).  3.  While all three regions were part of greater Scythia, this region is where modern Scythians still survive today, still speaking a Scythian language and some even still practicing their ancient pre-Christian Scythian Paganism.

I also think it's possible the names of Gog and Magog could be etymologically related to the name of the Caucus mountains themselves.  Jerome specifically placed Magog beyond the Caucasus by the Caspian Sea.

Kaukas is the name of a mythical ancestor of the various North-Eastern Caucasian peoples like the Nakh and others who live in Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia.  Now a lot of these traditions make him a son of Togarmah, but I think the name could simply be a form of Gog.  I think the Greeks included these people when they spoke of Scythians even though they didn't speak what modern scholars classify as a Scythian language.  Ancient Georgia/Iberia also had a region called Gogharena.

And no identifying Russia with Magog didn't begin during The Cold War, there is documentation for example that many Protestants in both Brittan and the United Stated identified Russia with Magog during the Crimean War of 1853-1856.

"In 1840, John Nelson Darby wrote that Gog, referred to in the book of Ezekiel6 , was the contemporary state of Russia, which was “extending her power over the nations who will be found under Gog” (quoted in Boyer, 1992, 154). While not the first to make this interpretation of the Bible, it was Darby’s preaching that influenced John Cumming, the man who popularized Russia’s hypothesized role in the Endtimes with his book, The End (1855), published during the Crimean War."

That's a quote taken from an article against the Russia theory, on page 13.

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.566.1374&rep=rep1&type=pdf

One dispute often brought into this discussion is whether the uses of Genesis 10 names in Bible Prophecy should be interpreted strictly geographically or if they can be “bloodlines” them as people groups that may have moved around.  Though it’s primarily those taking the Geographical position who are very hardlined that it should always only be that method.  Feeling that movements of people groups though out history is so complicated and uncertain that it can be used to make anything work.

The problem is it’s absurd to me to suggest that it should be universally the same method every time.  The context of the reference needs to be considered in determining whether it’s about the land or the people.  And in the case of Ezekiel 38 within one chapter the context of how different names are mentioned changes.

Magog, Meshech and Tubal are definitely references to their lands geographically, the word "land" is used in that verse.  But with Gomer and Togarmah it’s the opposite, their “bands” are what are being referred to not their locations.  But even more specifically than that with Togarmah it says the “House of Togarmah”.  Every Biblical reference to the “House of David” is agreed to refer to the family of David wherever they may currently be, not the land David ruled.  It could be these "bands" refer to mercenary or volunteer troops and not the proper nations those names refer to at all.

Persia, Cush and Phut are a little less clear which method is most appropriate. Fortunately those three groups haven’t significantly moved.  Some of them have migrated and can indeed now be found on every continent.  But primarily the Persians are still in Iran, the Cushites are still in Sudan and the Berbers are still in North Africa west of Egypt.

So yes the original settlement of Togarmah was the Anatolian city of Tegarama who's exact location is disputed.  But as Bill Cooper documents in After The Flood they were conquered by the Assyrians who did to them the same thing they did to Israel.  Many traditions have identified many tribes in and around the Caucus mountains to be descendants of Togarmah.  But what’s most interesting to me is how the Khazzars who partly converted to Judaism identified their people as descendants of Togarmah.  The core of their land was entirely within modern Russia to the north of Georgia.  Christian of Stavelot in his Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam (860–870s) refers to the Khazzars as Gazari and says they lived in the lands of Gog and Magog.  However there are also traditions that associate Armenia with Togarmah.  Of course this opportunity to associate the Khazzars with Gog and Magog is sometimes abused by Anti-Semities, no the Ashkenazim aren't Khazzars.

Now because of what I believe about how to deal with the sons and grandsons of Noah’s sons I will not consider Ashkenaz or Riphath relevant to these chapters.  Gomer does clearly originally refer to the Cimmerians who were in Anatolia, but again the Cimmerians moved around.  The most solid argument for connecting them to Russia is Crimea.  But it’s also possible the Scandinavian tribes who eventually came to Russia in medieval times could be at least partially of Gomerite stock.  And according to Herodotus the original homeland of the Cimmerians was between the Thyras and Tanais rivers (Dinester and Don) much of the same location he associates with the Scythians, Ukraine and parts of Russia.

Russia is not the only place descendants of these two Genesis 10 names can be traced to.  But the point is I already made a strictly geographical argument for Russia being the Land of Magog, so evidence of Gomer and Togarmah both winding up also in Russia further backs that up.

On it’s own I would not consider the “uttermost parts of the north” to prove anything since it could just mean anywhere North of Israel.  But since we have other good reasons to place Magog in Russia that identification only further makes things fit.

You can find a few articles online arguing for Magog being Babylon, based on arguing Magog itself being a cipher for Babel similar to Sheshech in Jeremiah, and other thematic connections, like Babylon otherwise being missing from Ezekiel's prophecies of Judgments on the nations.  However in the context of Mystery Babylon I should point out how the Tsars claimed Moscow was the Third Rome and that like the original Rome it too was a city on Seven Hills.

Tarshish, Sheba and Dedan are mentioned in the prophecy not as allies of the invaders but as nations criticizing the invaders.  If anyone in this chapter is definitely Turkey it’s Tarshish which was Tarsus.  (Though it is amusing how multiple competing Tarshish theories can be brought together by just saying Tarshish represents NATO here.)  At least one of Sheba and Dedan would definitely be Saudi Arabia, maybe both are, or the other could be Jordan, Kuwait, Dubai or Yemen.

All that is if the borders of the Middle East resemble their modern borders when this prophecy happens, it’s very possible they won’t anymore.

Again I do NOT believe in an imminent Gog and Magog invasion, this is the conclusion I’m coming to about Magog with genuinely no dog in that fight.  Chris White tries to make himself seem just as unbiased by taking basically the same timing position I do.  But White I feel has a tendency I used to have towards wanting to be contrarian on issues like this, he wants to deconstruct the Russia identification because it’s popular and so often tied to other views he’s against.

Joel Richardson wants to deconstruct the Russia identification because he feels it better fits his Islamic Antichrist view to make it Turkey.  I am still undecided on exactly what I believe about the cultural/religious background of the "Antichrist".  But Islam is the world’s fastest growing religion and it already has a very strong presence in parts of Russia, and even more in many former USSR nations.  Putin is devoutly Eastern Orthodox but a future leader could take them in a Muslim direction.  The identifications I have made here could fit seeing the invaders as the Shiiites (Iran and Azerbaijan are the two leading Shiite nations) and those criticizing them as the Sunnis.  Dagestan interestingly is a province of Russia that is already majority Muslim, as is neighboring Chechnya and Ingushetia.

Update October 2020 on if Rosh is a name or not.

It's interesting how complicated that debate is with there being Magog is not Russia supporters willing to say it is a name and Magog is Russia supporters willing to say it's not.  Since I originally made this post I have become the latter category.

The Septuagint/LXX witness is kind of the main smoking gun argument for saying it is a name since so many Traditionalist Christians trust it so much.  But on another Blog I've long expressed my reservations regarding the LXX.

The Latin Vulgate, Aramaic Targums and Aramaic Peshitta all support it not being a name but a word for Chief or Head.  Now I know many of my fellow Protestants love to go "the Vulgate must be wrong" but what's more important to me is having two Aramaic witnesses.  As a fellow Semitic language they had an inherent advantage in translating the Hebrew properly.  Jerome meanwhile studied Hebrew and talked to Rabbis and many Old Testament differences between Vulgate and LXX were him correcting LXX mistakes that were well known to the Hebrews even back then.

Now it is still possible The Holy Spirit was using prophetic word play.  The USSR was a Confederacy of nations each with it's own Nasi but the one called Russia was the chief among them.  Now today the USSR is gone and I believe this Prophecy happens after the Millennium.  But since I believe Jesus is a Communist, He may very well restore the USSR at the start of the Millennium, though I do suspect He's more of a Menshevik then a Leninist, or better yet a Left SR.

But regardless, the problem with the Rosh fixation is so many people think Russia as Magog is utterly dependent on that identification and so act like deconstructing that is all they need to do.  But I can make the argument without ever bringing that up, or making any Meshach=Moscow connection either.

Meanwhile in the context of my observations about defining the Genesis 10 nations by their Languages, the only surviving Scythian Language is spoken only in Ossetia a region that's partly in Russia and partly in the Russian occupied parts of Georgia.

Update June 14th 2021: So Christ White has changed his position on Rosh being a name in his new study on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hChZZjwFe3Q

But that's not all he's changed, he no longer talks about Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan when discussing Meshach and Tubal, instead he wants to place all the Japhetic names of Ezekiel 38 in "Eastern Turkey".  I can't help but assume this change happened because he realized what I argued above, Meshach and Tubal being in Georgia helps rather then hurts Magog being Russia.

Update March 29th 2022: Debunking Anatolian Tubal once and for all.

I've looked into the Basis for the Anatolian Tubal and it's even worse and more embarrassing then I thought it was.  The so called Anatolian Tubal is what was in classical antiquity known as Tyana but more anciently was Tuwana or Tuwanuwa, and there may have been a related tribe called Tuali.  

The second letter of this word appears to be one for U or W which you can then equate to the Hebrew Vav, but the Vav is also sometimes V and Beth is also sometimes V so maybe the Hebrew confused them?  Well no Vav being also V is a very late development in the languages history, one that is certainly not a factor in anything in the Pentateuch.  So the entire etymological basis for this identification is worthless.

The Georgian Tubal identification is far more credible, their Capital is called that to this day Tbilisi and is known to have been called that since very ancient times.  The variations are caused in part by the occasional L and R confusion (it's not something that only happens with English to Japanese, I have always heard the L in the middle of Colonel as an R).  And after that Iberes and Iberia/Iberian comes from the T being dropped for some reason.  

The argument for a Meshech in ancient Cappadocia is more valid, and here's the thing I think originally Meshech did settle there and their original post Flood Language was the language modern scholars call Hattian (not to be confused with the Indo-European language spoken by the Anatolian Hitties), but as that region was eventually conquered by various other Anatolian Empires their remnant moved to where their brother Tubal lived in Georgia and adopted their language(s) and that is why Eschatological references always pair those two together. Cappadocia and Tyana are not close enough to justify that consistent pairing.

Is Ezekiel 39 a Prequel to Ezekiel 38?

[Update April 2023: I've mostly abandoned this theory and now just place both chapter after The Millennium.  That said there is I feel some value in some of the observations I made here.]

The name Gog is in The Bible outside Ezekiel and Revelation.  Everyone knows Magog is, as a son of Japheth.  However I have realized that Gog is as well (and I'm not referring to those Septuagint additions either, this is in the KJV and the Masoretic Text).  But first the main topic for this study.

I did a post on Ezekiel 38 and 39 being after the Millennium, in the context of Chris White's argument.  I wavered there a bit but ultimately came to agree with Chris.  Back then I still supported identifying Magog, Rosh, Meshech and Tubal with Russia, but I've now come to be more willing to agree with White's identifications for the locations of the nations involved also.

I alluded in that post to having once seen but forgotten where an assessment that Ezekiel 39 takes place before Ezekiel 38.  I've now found a website making that argument but I don't think it's what I originally saw.  It argues Ezekiel 39 is Armageddon and Ezekiel 38 is the post Millennial invasion.

https://escapeallthesethings.com/gog-magog/
I haven't looked at other articles on that site.  I suspect there is plenty I disagree with, I'm here endorsing only possibly this article.  I left a Comment that may or may not ever get approved where I made some incorrect statements since I didn't think them through well enough.  I'll try to say what I meant to better here.

First, when making an argument like this, it's useful to state that you're aware the modern chapter divisions aren't in the original text.  In this case the first verse of Chapter 39 does make sense as a partial change of topic, and the last verse of 38 does sound kind of like a conclusion.

Now I have dedicated this Blog to arguing Revelation needs to be interpreted Chronologically.  But the reason I emphasis that is because it's what's distinct about Revelation from other Prophetic books.  Others aren't even all one vision unless it's really short.  And even within one vision or revelation there are reasons why it could suit Yahuah to show some things out of order.  The difference in Revelation is John is being shown a clear sequence of events.  And that the Book defines itself as how to make sense of the rest of The Bible.

So I'm not 100% sure I agree with this view of Ezekiel 38 and 39 yet, but I want to have a conversation about it.

As for why would God show Ezekiel these battles out of order?  Why do so many Historical movies not start at the beginning of what they're going to show?  Why did Star Wars start with Episode IV?

The core argument for seeing Ezekiel 39 as Armageddon is that Revelation 19 :17-21's language of the birds devouring the flesh of the defeated armies is borrowed from Ezekiel 39.  Indeed people who argue both chapters are about Armageddon have this as their strongest argument, while I defending a Post-Millennial view argued that could be generic battle aftermath imagery, what's more important is John used proper names from Ezekiel 38&39 in chapter 20 not 19.  However that was always the one exception to my strong conviction that when Revelation is explicitly drawing on imagery from an Old Testament Prophecy, it is depicting that same Prophecy.  Now a solution to that problem exists, and so I can point out how language of Ezekiel 39 is drawn on in Revelation 19 before the Millennium and language of Ezekiel 38 is drawn on in Revelation 20 after The Millennium.

To the objection that implies it's inaccurate to define Armageddon as an invasion from the north, I wouldn't address that how this article did at all.  The Hill of Megiddo is not the site of the battle but the gathering place of The Beast's Armies.  They are planning to attack Jerusalem, though they may be cut off at Bethel before they get there.  Or they are headed to The Woman's hiding place in The Wilderness (Arabia).  Either way, they are coming to their target from the North, Megiddo was in the Northern Kingdom, close to the northern extremity of what was allotted to Western Manasseh.

It's possible, though maybe a stretch, that Gog is only really an individual in chapter 39, that Ezekiel 38 means Gog as a geographical or tribal indicator.  Some things said in 38 might be a little difficult to interpret that way, but it's possible.  There are other Prophecies where Yahuah seems to speak to nations as if they were individuals.  Also remember that translators sometimes add more pronouns than the original Hebrew directly justifies.

Revelation 20 definitely seems to be using Gog not as a person but as a location or tribe, that is why it (and never Ezekiel) says the three word phrase "Gog and Magog", they are refereed to as two of the same kind of thing.

Meanwhile Ezekiel 39 describes the place where Gog will be buried being named after him.  That will be important later.

Also Ezekiel 39 never directly refers to Magog as being part of the invasion, it says that when the invaders are destroyed he'll also send fire on Magog and "them that dwell carelessly in the Isles".  39 also never mentions Persia, Cush, Phut, Gomer and Togarmah, Tarshish or Sheba and Dedan.

Revelation 20 gets mistakenly claimed to have all nations involved.  It just says the Nations in the four Corners, it doesn't say all.  Ezekiel 38's alliance represents all four corners, Phut in the West, Cush in the South, Persia in the East, and Gog, Gomer and Togarmah are associated with the north.

I also think Armageddon may not be as absolutely everyone as people assume.  I've talked on this blog about how I view the 6th Bowl of Wrath in Revelation 16 as being about the Scattered House of Ephraim returning to their land, in Northern Manasseh.

The idea that one or both Gog and Magog invasions are about the scattered Northern Israelites in some capacity is supported by the Four Corners terminology, as God said Israel would be scattered to the Four Corners, and also by Revelation 20:8 saying their Number was as the Sand of The Sea, an idiom repeatedly used of Israel's numbers in God's Promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and of specifically the North in Hosea.

Meshech and Tubal can both be associated with ancient Uratu, in modern Kurdistan, near where the Assyrians took the Northern Tribes they deported, and where the Kingdom of Adiabene emerged in the first century.  Uratu also had four ancient Kings named Rusa.  So maybe "Prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal", should instead be "Prince Rosh of Meshech and Tubal"?  But also one of these Rusa had a location named after him, Rusahinili.  There is also a Rosh of the tribe of Benjamin mentioned in Genesis.

This article unlike others seeking to identify a Gog invasion with Armageddon, insists Gog can't be The Beast since The Beast is cast into the Lake of Fire, and not killed or buried.  Indeed, it may instead be that Gog is one of the Kings of The East, along with Rosh.  But maybe there are other ways to look at it, who knows.

There is no doubt in my mind that Ezekiel 38 is about the post Millennial Gog and Magog invasion of Revelation 20.  Ezekiel 39 is either more on that, or it's Armageddon, but there is no Pre-Trib or Mid-Trib Gog and Magog invasion.

Ironically we are now in an era where it's liberals/leftists who are paranoid about Russia.

Now what about that reference to Gog I promised?  It's in 1 Chronicles Chapter 5 verses 4-6.  The context is talking about the Tribe of Reuben at the time they were deported by Assyria in about 745 BC.

The sons of Joel: Shemaiah his son, Gog his son, Shimei his son, Micah his son, Reaiah his son, Baal his son, Beerah his son, whom Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria carried away captive: he was prince of the Reubenites.

So it seems Joel was a Prince of Reuben at the time of the captivity, and he and his seven sons were carried away into captivity.  And his second son was named Gog.  The word for Prince used here is Nasi, same as in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

Why am I certain this isn't just a coincidence of names?  Because Ezekiel 39:11 says the place where Gog is buried is east of the sea, all scholars agree the Dead Sea is meant here.  Reuben was one of the trans-Jordan tribes, and the only one who was far enough south to be east of the Dead Sea.  My English language Jerusalem Bible has a footnote here implying that the river Arnon is specifically mentioned.  I'm not sure why it thinks that, might be something lost in translation, but I mention it because it's consistent with what I just said, the Arnon was meant to be the southern border of Reuben, the border between Reuben and Moab.

So the reason Gog is being associated with persons or peoples separated by over a Thousand Years is I think because it's identifying descent from Gog ben Joel of the Tribe of Reuben.

People who want to interpret Ezekiel as just referring to his own time like to see Gog as Gyges of Lydia.  Well Gyges, who was called Gugu in Assyrian inscriptions, died before Ezekiel's time.  But I do think Gyges could be the same individual as the Gog of 1 Chronicles 5.

The deportation of the Trans-Jordan tribes was in 745 BC.  Gyges reigned from 716 to 678 BC.  If he was Joel's second born son he could have been between 7-20 years old when deported.

Gygyes' story in Greek sources has a lot of myth mingled in.  Needless to say I don't think he was the son of a Dascylus.  The story of him being a Bodyguard could be plausible, sometimes kings have used foreign mercenaries as Bodyguards, like Caligula, and Israelites living in Exile could have been attracted to such a job.

The version of his rise to power that involves him sleeping with the prior King's wife, have the potential to remind a Biblically literate reader of Reuben's sin.  That could mean one of two things.  The story is made up but Gyges encouraged it out of affinity with his ancestor. Or that it's a trait he inherited.

Gyges could be an ancestor of Cyrus.  A later king of Lydia from his dynasty, Alyattes, had a daughter named Aryenis who married Astagyes of Media and may have been the mother of Cyrus's mother Mandane.  A daughter of Cyrus married Dairus I and was the mother of Xerxes, who was probably an ancestor of Apamea royal wife of Seleucus I, who I've shown were ancestors of Charlemagne.  In that line from Seleucus to Charlemagne were princes of Galatia.

Cyrus went on to conqueror Lydia, ending Gyges' dynasty.   At that point you could argue he fully became a successor of Gyges.

Making a Reubanite prince an ancestor of Charlemagne would be interesting to Britam supporters, since they like to make France Reuben.  France having it's own River Arnon is an interesting coincidence.  And it's also interesting here how both Eugene Sue in Les Mysteries du People and Paul Feval in Anne of the Isles (Translated into English by Brian Stableford published by BlackCoatPress) construct fictional narratives with a mythical patriarch of a clan of Pre-Christian and Pre-Roman Gallic (specifically Bretan) France named Joel.

But as interesting as that all is, I think the Gog(s) of Ezekiel and Revelation will be attacking from Turkey or Northern Iraq.

Update: More on Lydia

The city of Sardis wasn't always called that it seems.  Homer called it Hyde, and I agree with the theory that Homer was contemporary with Gyges.  The oldest surviving reference to it being called Sardis is in the 470s BC.

I've talked on my Revised Chronology Blog about the Sherden/Shardana of the Seas Peoples being linked to both Sardis and Sardinia and possibly descending from the Sardite clan, descendants of Sered of the Tribe of Zebulun in Numbers 26:26.

In Gyges time however the Sherden were not yet native to Sardis, but were among the foreign mercenaries he was using and also recommended to Psamtick I of Egypt (Seti I in my chronology).  The son of a Reubanite prince using members of other Tribes as mercenaries would certainly be interesting.

The Masoretic Text's Hebrew spelling of Gog is Gimel-Vav-Gimel, and Magog is Mem-Gimel-Vav-Gimel.  But the vav like yot was sometimes used like a vowel in the Masoretic text, so some people theorize for words like this the vav might not have been used originally.  This factors into two theories about the etymology of Gog and Magog.

One is the idea that Magog is a Hebrew code for Babel (Babylon).  If the Vav is dropped then you get Magog from taking the next letter after it in the alphabet for each letter of Magog and then turning it backwards.  Gog then becomes just Bab, which means gate in the pagan etymology of Bab-El.  Makes me think of the Persian false prophet known as The Bab (but there was also Babai The Great an important 7th Century leader of the Church of The East).

The other is the theory that Agag might be a related name.  The Septuagint replaces Agag with Gog in Balaam's oracles, in Numbers 24:7, and I've heard the Samaritan Pentateuch does as well, the Samritians don't regard any of the Prophets so had no bias to want to add a name made famous by Ezekiel (or possibly Amos).

In the context of looking for Gog in Media or Persia, it's interesting to remember that Haman was called an Agagite (technically his parent, presumably father, was).  The Septuagint additions to Esther has the Persian King call Haman a Macedonian.  Maybe Makedon could be related to Magog somehow?  But also a Macedonian princess named Gygaea married a Persian noble and was the mother of another Persian noble.  Gygaea was also an ancient name for Lake Mamara in Lydia.

Update April 2020: Maybe Ezekiel 37's relationship is the same, maybe it's the Bodily Resurrection and final regathering of Israel that doesn't happen till the White Throne Judgment leading into the descent of New Jerusalem.  So we have three straight chapters that perhaps should be read in reverse?

The Kings of The East

Today references to the Kings of The East by modern Bible Prophecy speakers pretty much always assume they are the Far East, China, Korea, Japan, India and the other nations around them.

But The Biblical references to them during the Sixth Bowl account in Revelation 16:12-16 begins with talk about the Euphrates River being dried up.  That river is depicted as the border holding them back.

The Euphrates river as a border should remind Biblically literate readers of God's original Covenant with Abraham, where it is the eastern most border of what God promised to Abraham.

But in John's day it was also the primary border between the Roman and Parthian Empires, whether you see John's day as Nero or Domitian's reign.  With Parthia on the other side of that border were Parthian Client kingdoms, Edessa, Adiabene, Armenia, Media, Characene, Elymais, ect.  Some of whom were often caught in the middle of Rome and Parthia's ongoing Cold War.

You do not have to be Preterist to keep what these geographical terms in John's day meant in mind when trying to interpret Revelation.  Keeping them in mind is just common sense.  The problem for Preterists is the only Army to come from East of the Eurphrates to Judea during the 66-73 AD Jewish-Roman War was the army lead by Monobaz II which was on the Jews' side.

What intrigues me as a Futurist who is interested in the theory that History always repeats itself.  Is how in many ways the way the world is lining up now is eerily similar to John's day, though with obvious differences too.  The region of "Persia" being in conflict with the West is one example of that.

This emphasis on the Euphrates River I feel is also damaging to any Mystery Babylon theory that is dependent on making Babylon some non Mesopotamian region.  Whether it's Rome, America, Jerusalem/Israel, Arabia, Turkey, whatever your fixation is.  The name Babylon is not the only geographical tie Revelation has to that region.

The first Bowl of God's Wrath is the immediate aftermath of The Mark being instituted.  The rest come in pairs. 2 and 3 are about the world's water supply being destroyed, 4 and 5 are about the Sun.  So it's not a coincidence that 6 and 7 both mention names linked to Mesopotamia.

Satan, The Beast, and The False Prophet, use demonic entities to gather the world's armies but particularly it seems the Kings of the East to Armageddon against God.  Marching on God is indeed his plan but I think he also has another intent here.

Remember, Babylon is NOT the Beast's Capital, whatever kind of Geo-Political entity she is, she wields power over The Beast, she is riding it.  It hates her and wants her dead.  I think he wants to lure the armies around Babylon away from her so he can do a sudden sneak attack on her.

You may be thinking "Problem with your theory is the Euphrates isn't a border anymore".  Our official Maps still like to think of Iraq as all one country, but internally it's divided.  Right now the Euphrates may not make a perfect border between it's internal divisions yet, but I think it's interesting that most of what is under Iranian backed Shiite control is East of the Euphrates.

If modern Iran winds up effectively controlling most of Iraq (besides what's Kurdish) east of the Euphrates.  It will become an Empire that looks a lot like the ancient Parthian Empire.

And so that is a problem for people who back up their view of a Pre-Trib Gog and Magog invasion by saying that Iran seems to play no role in the events of the Final Week.  In fact it does.

It's also possible that this could be how The Medes role in the fall of Babylon as recorded by Isaiah 13 and Jeremiah 50-51 ties into Revelation.

Gog and Magog: After the Millennium or before?

Chris White has been making a good argument against the popular notion of Ezekiel 38 and 39 happening before or during the 70th Week, and that it is fully the same as Revelation 20.
http://bibleprophecytalk.com/bpt-the-gog-m...ing-of-the-war/
http://bibleprophecytalk.com/bpt-the-gog-m...tries-involved/

His arguments are very good and have me convinced. Still I do think it's possible that there may be a near lesser fulfillment, but Doctrinally I have come to think mainly it's about the end of the Millennium.

The concept of Double Fulfillment is generally only applied to Prophecies where the near fulfillment has already happened. Where we see the final fulfillment as being in the 70th Week or the

start of the Millennium. But I think we should consider that it does apply to other areas as well.

Chris makes more of a point then he should, I think, out of Ezekiel 38&39's relationship to the immediately proceeding chapters of Ezekiel, 33-37 mainly. "And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying" is always referring to a new vision. That there isn't a date given here probably means he had it the same day as the preceding visions, but it's still a distinct vision. But also even within a single vision what's foretold isn't always purely chronological. And even within the context of the Gog and Magog Prophecy, I've seen people argue that Ezekiel 39 actually happens before 38, though I'm not sure I understand that logic.

It's funny actually because we keep using the phrase "God and Magog" in specific reference to Ezekiel 38&39 even though Biblically that exact phrase appears only in Revelation 20. In Ezekiel it's clear that Magog is the name of the Land and Gog an individual from there who rules Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. And I keep seeing people read that same distinction into Revelation 20, we should use Scripture to pertinent Scripture but not in conflict with the clear Grammar of a phrase. Grammatically in Revelation 20 ""Gog and Magog" both refer to the location or tribes.

I see this inconsistency in usage as perhaps explained by Ezekiel 39. "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog."

People like to talk about how seeing the Gog and Magog invasion in modern Times requires allegorizeing the references to Bows and Arrows and Horses and stuff. And Chris suggests that technology will sort of phase out during the Millennium so that solves that problem.

First off I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the suggestion that technology would die out during the Millennium or even New Jerusalem. This sounds like a somewhat Hippie minded notion of what a Utopia would be, and carries the implication that maybe God doesn't like technology. The Law of Moses made Ancient Israel as technologically sophisticated as a nation could be at that time, so no I don't think technological advancement is inherently bad.

And the people who think it must be allegorized are ignorant of the Hebrew Language. The word for "Arrows" is even in the 1611 KJV translated a variety of different ways. "Missile" is in fact the most literal translation of what the word means, and the word for Bow means anything used to launch said missile. Jeremiah 50:9 says "their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain." if you study the Hebrew words here and the grammar, what it's literally saying is the Arrows themselves have intelligence, and it never misses it's target. Before the last century the only interpretation of this was that God was doing it supernaturally, but the text doesn't explicitly define it that way.

Also the words referring to horses and horsemen can simply mean Cavalry, we use the the word Cavalry today to refer to motorized mobile military unites. And Helicopters are called "Air Cav". Also the Hebrew word translated "Chariot" can mean more then just horse drawn carriages, and it is what the modern Israeli army calls their Tanks.

Now I want to make clear I don't support all the places people like to read Nuclear warfare into Bible Prophecy. When Jesus said "lest those days be shortened no flesh should be saved" that's not about technology, that's about the effects of the Bowls of God's Wrath, in which among other things all water on Earth becomes undrinkable. And Zachariah 14 is talking about when God destroys the enemies of Israel.

In Ezekiel 39, it's not to me about any perceived description of the Nukes themselves. This Chapter is the only time, ever, The Bible describes the clean up after a battle. And what's interesting is there is no way to make sense of it without the possibility of nuclear radiation.

Ezekiel 39:24-15"And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search. And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog." People are going to have full-time employment making sure all this stuff is buried. And it seems to be imperative no untrained person actually touch anything if they find something.

What's also interesting is that it's now known that the half life of the Nuclear materiel in Russia's Nukes is 7 years. It fits this Prophecy perfectly.

I love how people try to make it sound like those of us seeing the region of modern Russia are torturing the data. Yes people have been identifying this Prophecy with various Boogeymen throughout history, but by no means every Boogeyman. What's interesting to me  is no one saw Islam in this passage before the Soviet Russia started supplying support to various Muslim enemies of Israel during the Cold War. Because the main three allies mentioned became Islamic regions over a Thousand before, the core of the Prophecy was always understood as being about the North.

The Caspian Gates legend can be traced back at least to the time of Josephus who alludes to it if I recall correctly towards the end of Wars of the Jews. And that Legend is always defined as Alexander making this Gate to keep the "Hordes of Gog and Magog" locked up in the North. Now this legend isn't real, Alexander built no such gates, but both of the structures suspected of inspiring the Legend (or commonly identified with it) are located where everything North of them is modern Russia, between the Black Sea and Caspian Sea.

All of the main "boogeymen" identified with this Prophecy have had some connection to the area of modern Russia. And I could get into it a lot more if I wanted to but I think that's for another study. The Point is, even if the timing of the Prophecy refers only to After the Millennium, that land North of the Black Sea (and the supposed Caspian Gate) is still the only land I see Magog as referring to. It's actually one of the more consistently interpreted Prophecies geographically speaking.

Josephus said Magog was the Scythians.  I know the Greeks used Scythian as a broad term so maybe not all Scythians were of Magog (I suspect both Tubal and Meshech were considered Scythians, and some of Ashkenaz was connected with that region).

The ONLY reason any Scholars try to move what Magog means to Asia Minor/Anatolia/Modern Turkey is because of the desire of Preterists and Bible Skeptics to say Gog refers to Gyges/Gugu a King of Lydia.  Problem is the Lydian King with that name lived before Ezekiel's time not during it or soon after.

Also even if I was open to a Preterist or History written after the fact interpretation of Ezekiel 38-39.  I would still find it idiotic to look for Gog's name in history.  Likewise as a Futurist I do not expect that to be Gog's real personal name, either for a near fulfillment or after The Millennium.  Because it's clear from the text itself Gog is just a nickname used as a pun on the name Magog.  It's not just in English it looks like Magog with the first part removed.  In fact it's more so in Hebrew, without the vowels it is literally just one letter, Mu, that is removed.  So looking for Gog's name in secular history of any time period is a futile effort.

Gyges was king of Sardis/Lydia, which Biblically is Lud a son of Shem not Japheth.

The thing about Prophecies with a double Fulfillment is, core details apply to both events. Certain ones apply only to the Finale Fulfillment, mostly only that one fits the full Epic Scale of the Prophecy. But details can also only strictly apply to the near fulfillment. Those mostly relate to the background of the Prophecy. Like Daniel 8 and the Little Horn, any sense by which The Antichrist can be said to come from the Seleucid Dynasty (or any other Hellenistic Kingdom) is going to be very, very, very indirect.

That is why, I do still think we need to pay attention to modern Russia and it's Alliance with Iran and Shiite Islam. Regardless of how much other evidence points to a post Millennial Fulfillment.

The thing is, lots of Extra-Biblical Prophecies seem to me to be setting the stage for the Antichrist and/or The False Prophet to claim the credit for defeating Gog and Magog. Muslims today associate Dajjal with the West and Gog and Magog with the Communist world (which like many westerners they still associate Russia with). And Rabbinic Judaism sees either Gog or Armilus killing Ben-Joseph to be later defeated by Ben-David.  Chris White thinks it's possible a fake Gog and Magog invasion could be used by The Antichrist.  I think maybe that "fake" invasion could be the near fulfillment.

And I do see in Daniel 11:36-45 a possible Biblical Basis for this. Where the Libyians and Ethiopians are at his steps, and tidings Trouble him out of the North and East (The King of the North who is Syria and possibly parts of Iraq he's already defeated at this point, so this is further North). So for that reason, I think it's important not to minimize the Post-Millennial significance. But I see these tidings as also possibly tying into the Medes/Modern Kurds role in Isaiah 13 and Jeremiah 50-51, and the destruction of Elam (southern Iran) in Jeremiah 49:34-39.  Iran now by porxy controls much of Shiite Iraq.

[Update September 2016: The last Paragraph there involved assumptions I've long since abandoned about Daniel 11.  But my views on the Kurds and Elam/Jeremiah 11 haven't changed much.]

Jeremiah Elam Prophecy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FyoHiY1gg8&list=UU_6yk4Q5RMk1MCUj5A2a-jw&hd=1

I actually disagree with the whole Psalm 83 War theory.  And a Pre-Millennial Gog and Magog invasion.  But this insight seems more credible.  Especially if Christians In Iran are feelign called by The Holy Spirit to pay attention to it.