The Timing of The Rapture is not The Point of the Olivte discourse Parables

In Matthew 24's Olivite Discourse Verse 31 is the end of the straight forwards description of future events  Then verse 32 onto the end of chapter 25 is a series of figures of speech and parables, some have parallels in the others Gospels but most do not.

Pre-Tribbers and Post-Tribers and Pre-Wrathers all talk about MOST of these parables as if the timing of the Rapture is their point, and both sides of the "Imminence" debate will try to argue these parables support their position.

I don't believe the timing of the Rapture is the point.  I do believe they are about the Parusia in a sense, but whether the people involved were or should be expecting prior events or not isn't the point.

I should remind everyone that building doctrine on Parables is always sketchy.

Here is the thing, I'm Anti Pre-Trib, early in this blog's history I made a trilogy of posts debunking Imminence (both Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath versions of it).  But if the timing of the Rapture was the point of these parables I'd have to agree they support Pre-Trib more.  I know Chris White keeps saying "what's the point of watching if there is nothing to watch for" but Pre-Tribbers view it as you're not watching for the return if you're instead watching for prior events.

In these parables the narratives in question have no prior events, the Bridegroom or Thief or whoever just shows up.  If the point is about timing then the point is the bad servants and foolish virgins seemed to think they had more time then they actually did.

And these are warnings given specifically to believers, most appear only in Matthew who's version was a speech given ONLY to the 12.  So the common Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath explanation that it's the World who it comes on like a Thief doesn't hold up in this context, maybe when 1 Thessalonians 5 uses that idiom but not here.

The problem with applying the Pre-Trib interpretations of the Parrables to the actual Doctrine of the Rapture is that they imply you won't be Raptured if you weren't properly watching for it.  And that's not how the Rapture will actually work. when it's directly described all believers regardless of what they are doing get Raptured.

I said most up above, but you see the Sheeps and Goats parable that ends chapter 25 is treated differently, no one thinks that one's point is the timing of The Rapture, it's usually viewed as either a Post-Armageddon judgment Revelation doesn't mention or as the White Throne Judgment.  But the opening of the parable is just as explicitly about the coming of the Son of Man as all the others, so separating it so it's about something different isn't justified.  Revelation 11 refers to a Judgment of the Saints after the Seventh Trumpet.

The moral point of the Sheeps and Goats Judgment is that we should act as if Jesus is already here regardless.  And I think the other parables are the same.

I think the best modern expositor on the Parables is Peter Hiett, even though I don't agree with his basic views on Revelation and Genesis.

The Beast out of the Red Sea?

My Hades and The Sea post was mainly about how the Sea is referenced in Revelation 20.  But I did suggest the possibility of the Beast rising out of the Sea being an idiom of a resurrection of someone buried at sea but then said I couldn't think of any historical Antichrist candidates who were.

Because I've been again rethinking my theories about the geography of Sinai and Kadesh I was reading Exodus 15, and noticed something right in the first verse.

"I will sing unto Yahuah, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea."

We've long debated whether or not the Biblical text implies Pharaoh himself wound up also being drowned in the Red Sea, but consider the above, and how this terminology makes me think of the Four Horsemen, I'm starting to wonder if I just uncovered a vital clue to the Mystery of The Beast.

Later in verse 19.

"For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and Yahuah brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea."

Combing this with my earlier arguments for an Egyptian Antichrist, and I think I really might have just stumbled upon the key.

The Removal of restraint happens in Revelation 9.

II Thessalonians 2:7-8 tells us something is currently restraining the Son of Apoleia and that's why the Abomination of Desolation hasn't happened yet and in turn the Parusia and Rapture can't happen till after that.  The use of the word "he" in translations is misleading, it's not necessarily any person doing the restraining, but you could in my view say the "restrainer" is the Fifth Trumpet Angel if you wanted to.

Revelation 11:7 and 17:8 both tell us that at least one of the Beasts ascends out of the Bottomless Pit aka the Abyss aka the Great Deep.  At the beginning of Revelation Chapter 9 the Abyss is locked but after the Fifth Trumpet is sounded it is opened and entities in that Abyss begin to leave.  Revelation 20 further tells us that in the future this is where Satan will be restrained for a Thousand years.

This argument is not dependent on identifying either Beast with any specific personage in Revelation 9, the facts I just laid out should be enough to make it obvious.  None the less I feel a strong argument can be made for Apollyon being the Son of Apoleia.

It annoys me that this simple answer to the Restrainer mystery is so rarely what Prophecy teachers argue for.  The Early Church Writers tended to think the Restrainer was Rome for some reason, today most Pre-Tribbers say it's the Holy Spirit to try and make this obviously Pre-Trib destroying passage compatible.  And the "Pre-Wrath" view of Chris White tends to say it's Michael doing what he does in Revelation 12 and Daniel 12 even though that makes no grammatical sense at all, not to mention how it makes no Chronological sense in the context of Pre-Wrath, that makes more sense as a Midway Point argument.

In his most recent Podcast while addressing Pre-Tribbers Chris White says that Matthew 24:38's description of people "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" makes no sense in a context where any of the Trumpets have already happened but specifically singled out the Fifth.  He makes a similar argument about the "peace and safety" from I Thessalonians 5:3.

The problem with that argument is Revelation 11:10.  I view that verse of Matthew 24 as that same three and a half day period, same with the "peace and safety" verse.  Doesn't matter how much bad apocalyptic stuff had already happened, people think it's over now.  And I still think the End Times deception will be partly based on people thinking the first half of the 7 year period is the second half.

If you think "as the days of Noah were" must mean nothing catastrophic had happened yet, I direct you to this post where I discus overlooked details of Genesis 6.
https://midseventiethweekrapture.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-flood-did-not-destroy-earth-it.html

There is no Wrath before the Seventh Trumpet.

Alan Kurshner supports his position that the Eschatological Wrath of God is more then just the Seven Bowls by saying the word "Wrath" doesn't have to be used for the concept of "Wrath" to be in mind.

I do not disagree with that on it's own, after all the word "Parousia" isn't in Revelation at all but I strongly feel Revelation tells us when that happens by describing it's characteristics.

However my strong belief that we are not in Wrath during the first half of the book is based on more then just the rarity of the word itself popping up in the first 11 chapters.  It's based on specifically what we are told when Wrath is explicitly mentioned.

After the Seventh Trumpet is sounded Revelation 11:18 says that His Wrath is Come, Wrath starting is an effect of which the Seventh Trumpet is a cause.  The only time the word Wrath is used before the Seventh Trumpet is sounded is during the Sixth Seal events of Revelation chapter 6, but it's not any heavenly voice saying it there, it's the Kings of The Earth, not a credible source.  Again see my post on the Non Signs.

A common explanation of the difference between Tribulation and Wrath is that "Tribulation is what Man does and Wrath is what God does".  This definition is often promoted by Pre and Post Tirbbers, people who don't even consider such a distinction relevant to the timing of The Rapture.

Even if I partially agreed with that I would still say the events associated with the Seals and first 6 Trumpets are not directly God's doing the same way the Bowls are.  After all events Pre-Wrathers place before the Rapture (the first 5 Seals) are just as arguably caused by God as the Trumpets are.  In fact the seals being opened by the Lamb rather then Angels makes them if anything more directly God's doing.

But I don't agree with that definition, it isn't found in Scripture.

The doctrine that The Church won't be here during the Eschatological Day of The Lord's Wrath doesn't mean God inherently isn't judging the nations during the Church Age.  For one thing there are passages definitely about what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD that called it God's Wrath.

In fact the accounts of the Trumpets specifically refer to Believers being here, unlike the Bowls.  No the 144 Thousand can't be interpreted as Post Rapture believers, they are described using clearly Church Specific terminology, like being the First Fruits.  In Paul's Epistles being Sealed is itself a Church specific Promise, tied to our Promise that The Holy Spirit won't leave us.

There is no evidence of believers on Earth during the Bowls, in fact Chapters 14 and 15 seem to have us in heaven already.  At best the first Bowl's account can be taken to imply there still exist people who didn't take the Mark.  But unlike most Christians I don't think only Believers will refuse The Mark.

Or if there are Saints during the Bowls period they can't be proven to be the Church specifically the same way the 144 Thousand are.  The people of God being told to come out of Babylon in the Wilderness is terrestrial Israel.

Biblically Trumpets are warnings.  I'm to lazy to go and make that argument right now, but google it I'm confident you'll find many have proven that.  The Trumpets are the warning signs we are supposed to be looking out for.

Also I will in the near future be making another post on how the removal of restraint refereed to in II Thessalonians 2 is the Fifth Trumpet in Revelation 9.

I made that Anti-PreWrath Meme I mentioned.

I would like to see someone else make a better version of it.

And I think actually a brief Twitter exchange with Christ White which I'll copy/paste here.

The Lamb's Waifu

@JaredMithrandir

I made an #AntiPreWrathMeme. But I've like for someone else to improve it.

@prewrathrapture

#PreWrath #MidTrib #PreTrib #TheRapture #PostTrib

9:37 AM · Nov 15, 2019·Twitter Web App

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Chris White

@prewrathrapture

·

15h

Replying to

@JaredMithrandir

All this shows is that you are not familiar with prewrath view on rev 13, and for that matter most peoples view on the timing of rev 13 which is a biography which extends from his beginning to his end. By your logic the 6th seal comes before christ's birth in rev 12 lol.

1

The Lamb's Waifu

@JaredMithrandir

·

14h

I don't view Revelation 12 as the Birth of Christ and neither did Methodious of Olympus back before Nicaea. Revelation 11-13 is a clear sequence of cause and effects, Pre-Wrath aren't the only ones mistaken on that. But most still place the Abomination here.

1

The Lamb's Waifu

@JaredMithrandir

·

14h

In your view when the Abomination happens in the actual Timeline of Revelation it is barely commented on at all. The identity of the Man Child is revealed by Isaiah 66, it's New Jerusalem.