This is not gonna be your typical Four Horsemen study. I'm not going to go equally in depth into each one. I'm gonna elaborate on my own thoughts on what I feel others commonly get wrong, while adding unique observations of my own. Rather then rehash what countless other teachers have gone over.
Even though I disagree with his Pre-Trib assumptions I recommend Chuck Missler's seminars and related articles on them from his Website, the last three at least. And to elaborate on the issues connected to the Third Horseman I recommend the documentaries The Money Masters, America Freedom to Fascism, and Fall of The Republic. On on the issues connected to the Fourth Horsemen I recommend Endgame:Blueprint for Global Enslavement, and various of Chris White's videos on YouTube dealing with The New Age Movement.
[[Update: My endorsements of Alex Jones documentaries I now greatly regret since he's become a Trump supporter.]]
First I want to discus the common notion that they're perfectly analogous with Matthew 24:5-7. As I explain in my Olivte Discourse Study, these are the Non Signs, they're characteristic of all History and Jesus' whole point here was it is fallacy to cite those vague things as Signs.
I'm not saying the Horsemen have no connection to these trends, I wouldn't have recommend those documentaries if I felt that way. In a sense they are these common trends of history coming to their true commencement. But to cite that part of the Olivte Discourse as specifically End Times is to give a middle finger to what Jesus actually said.
Verse 7 says these things are the "Beginning of Sorrows", that doesn't contradict my point. What Preterists miss is that in a sense the entirety of the Church Age is the Time of the End.
With that out of the way, I want to get into to how they relate to the issue of The Antichrist. The most common view is The White Horseman is The Antichrist, which I consider possibly true in a sense, I'll get to that.
Some like to say all four horses have the same rider, and that's The Antichrist. The problem with that is the Fourth Rider is identified in Revelation 6 itself as Death. Revelation 20 reveals that Death is sent into the lake of Fire after the Millennium, after Satan even. The Beast and The False Prophet are sent there before The Millennium.
So IF all four have the same rider, that goes against the rider being The Antichrist.
Is it possible Death rides all four not just the Fourth? Would seem weird not to identify him earlier, but things affiliated with earlier horsemen are repeated for the Pale Horse. However looking at Zechariah 6 which is linked to the Four Horseman issue, I'm inclined to view them as separate riders.
Not all agree The White Horseman is The Antichrist. First objection might be, why is this the only time in Revelation that The Antichrist isn't "the beast"? Other books of The Bible use various titles for him, but Revelation is everywhere else far more consistent. Well, the second beast of Chapter 13 is called by a far more human title elsewhere, The False Prophet, so why not the first?
But also I feel he doesn't become The Beast until he ascends out of the Bottomless Pit, when his Mortal Wound is healed. The first reference to The Beast is in Chapter 11, when The Witnesses are killed, 3.5 years into the 70th Week. The Rider on the White horse I view as the Human being who later becomes The Beast.
This isn't something to build doctrine on, but the fact that so many awaited Messianic Figures of false religions also ride White Horses, (like Kalki, the future Avatar of Vishnu in Hinduism), I feel backs up this being The Antichrist. Doesn't prove The Antichrist will actually claim to be those individuals either, I believe Satan has planted many seeds for the End Time deception, and that even he isn't 100% sure how things will play out. Example, while I've come to reject the theory that The Antichrist will claim to be the Mahdi of Islam, I do not doubt at all Satan created that Prophetic tradition for the purpose of being a possible option for The Antichrist.
The Rider on the White Horse is often interpreted as a positive figure. Confusing him with the White Horseman of Revelation 19 is the root of that. But not all interpretations making him a good guy make him Jesus.
I've seen this Horseman argued to be The Church. I feel that view is not sufficiently backed up by any other terminology used of The Church.
Some Muslim scholars have identified their Mahdi with this part of Revelation, which only lends fuel to Christians who are obsessed with an Islamic Antichrist. I don't know if current Mormons have actually connected their White Horse prophecy to the First Horseman. But I feel like Revelation 6 must have inspired Joseph Smith or whoever really originated it.
The Fourth Horseman we know winds up in the lake of fire, but does that prove they're all villains? Death is an Angelic being clearly while the first I view as Human, so there can be differences between what kinds of personages they are.
Perhaps it's not either/or, perhaps he is a good guy at first, but makes a deal with the Devil latter. There are Biblical precedents for a leader anointed by a True Prophet of God's orders winding up a villain. Saul, Jeroboam, Jehu, and yes even Solomon. Not to mention Jesus personally choose Judas, yet he was a Devil (John 6:70).
I and Chris White think he may claim to be, or be claimed by others to be, the Rabbinic Jewish figure of Messiah Ben-Joseph. And with what I suggested above, maybe that wouldn't even be entirely a wrong claim. Three out of those four Old Testament examples are people viewed in one way or another as a type of Ben-Joseph by those who believe in that concept.
I talked in that post I made on White's theory about how even some Christians accept this idea of a Messiah Ben Joseph separate from Jesus. I'm kind of surprised I haven't yet seen any of those Christians link Messiah Ben-Joseph to the White Horseman.
The rider on the White Horse has a Bow and is given a Crown. Genesis 49:24 Jacob says of Joseph "But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the
hands of the mighty God of Jacob". And Zechariah 9:13 says "When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy
sons, O Zion, against thy sons O Javan". And Isaiah 28 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim".
Those who look for astronomical correlations to the imagery in Revelation, inevitably see Sagittarius as the Rider on the White Horse. He is a Horseman, he has a Bow, and is sort of holding the Corona Borealis (a Crown).
Different Mazzaroth/Gospel in The Stars researchers have different theories on how to align the 12 Zodiac signs with the 12 tribes. Leo as Judah and Scorpio as Dan are the most universal. But maybe more then one such theory is equally true, because the 12 Tribes are defined differently in different Biblical passages. Even on the near universal two I mentioned, Deuteronomy 33 has Dan as the Lion's Whelp.
The same Biblical references that could connect Joseph/Ephraim to the White Horseman, have caused some Mazzaroth sites to make him Sagittarius. Sagittarius being next to Scorpio is interesting, Dan and Ephraim are the two names left out of Revelation 7's account of the sealing of the 144,000. It is Genesis 49 that makes Dan a Serpent (Scorpion fits the Biblical definition of a Serpent, and Scorpio is linked to Ophiuchus and Serpens) and Judah the Lion. That Chapter's description of Joseph can only make him Sagittarius, not Taurus or Aquarius.
Generally the first and last Horsemen are the only ones identified with specific personages. Death and The Antichrist. What about the two in between? Certainly those evils can have villains in charge of them too. But as far as other Biblical Prophetic personages to identify them with goes, I can't think of anyone for the Black Horseman. For the Red Horseman however, someone who goes to War with The Antichrist seems logical.
The King of The South or King of The North of Daniel 11:40 perhaps. But I've discussed elsewhere how The Terrible of The Nations in Ezekiel seems to be the one who gives the beast his Mortal Wound. And he does so with a Sword, and The Rider on The Red Horse has a Sword.
Lastly I want to address Chris White's claim that the "wild beasts of the earth" from the Fourth Horseman's description are the beasts of Revelation 13, and so he can therefore place the Abomination of Desolation in the Fourth Seal thus helping the Pre-Wrath position.
True, it's technically the same Greek word used for beast, and only here in Revelation is "wild" added to try and make it seem like it's clearly wild animals, but it is rendered "wild beasts" elsewhere outside Revelation. And in Revelation this is also the only time it's plural. The Beasts of Revelation 13 are never refereed to with the plural form of the word, when it's necessary to refer to both in the same breath, the second becomes The False Prophet.
His argument about the grammar of the verse is true however. The Greek text does imply these beasts are controlling the famines and wars and earthquakes mentioned before. So I do think the word is being used here in a way related to Daniel 7 and 8, as imperialistic nation states. But it's not the Chapter 13 Beasts yet.
They could possibly be the current Globalist Agenda carrying out their planned Eugenics operations. I think, drawing on White's own theories about The Antichrist, that The Antichrist may present himself as saving the world from their evil operations.
Or maybe they're the first three beasts of Daniel 7, before the Fourth Beast conquers them. Which also lends itself to other theories of White's, which I partly agree and partly disagree with.
Friday, September 19, 2014
On The Issue of The Seventieth Week of Daniel
There are some Christians out there who are Preterist in their understanding of the 70 Weeks of Daniel including the 70th. But still Premillennial, and Futurist in their understanding of Revelation, Matthew 24 and other parts of Daniel. They believe there is no gap between the 69th and 70th Week, and that the 70 Weeks prophecy has no connection to Revelation or the End Times. They are all "Post-Trib" from what I've seen so far.
This belief itself can have different forms in how they believe the 70 Weeks are already fulfilled. The point is they believe it is the great error of most Futurists to force a 7 year time period into their understanding of Revelation. They insist Revelation and Daniel 12 all repeatedly define the time period of the End Times as 42 Months, 1260 days, Time Times and half a Time, ect.
That this time peirod happens to be half of seven years, and Daniel 9:27 happens to divide it's 70th week in half, and Daniel 12 again brings up the Abomination of Desolation in one of those time period references, is all just a coincidence.
Related to this is another view that there is a gap, but the gap is in the middle of the 70th week, not between the last two weeks. That Jesus on the Cross marks the mid-Way point of the 70th Week, not the end of the 69th as a plain reading implies.
They wouldn't consider what I pointed out above a coincidence. But they view the first half as having nothing to do with Revelation, and so would agree that all references to 3.5 years in Revelation are about the same time period. There is no coming seven year period.
Problem is, the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 and 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 can't be the same time period. In the former Israel controls The Temple, the Gentiles only have the Outer Court, but in the Latter they're hiding in The Wilderness.
There are two ways they would respond to this argument of mine.
Some would allegories 11:2, the Temple and Holy City there is The Church, not Jerusalem. And the Outer Court being Trodden Under Foot refers to either 1. Persecution, or 2. fake Christians within the Church. They argue this Holy City can't be the Same as terrestrial Jerusalem described latter as "Spiritually Sodom and Egypt". But that is always the nature of Jerusalem in the Old Testament. She constantly falls into a Sinful State , but God never ceases considering her his Holy City.
The alternative is to reject the The Woman being Israel, or at least National Israel, bringing replacement theology into it. Saying she's The Church, or part of The Church. Or keeping her as National Israel but only the believing Remnant. Such views convolute things too much.
So yes, a Seven Year time peirod can be demonstrated from Revelation alone, without turning to Daniel.
I believe Revelation 11's 3.5 year references are the first half of the 70th Week. The Seventh Trumpet marks the midway point and The Rapture, and then the 3.5 year references in Revelation 12 and 13 are the second half.
I've elaborated on this here.
This belief itself can have different forms in how they believe the 70 Weeks are already fulfilled. The point is they believe it is the great error of most Futurists to force a 7 year time period into their understanding of Revelation. They insist Revelation and Daniel 12 all repeatedly define the time period of the End Times as 42 Months, 1260 days, Time Times and half a Time, ect.
That this time peirod happens to be half of seven years, and Daniel 9:27 happens to divide it's 70th week in half, and Daniel 12 again brings up the Abomination of Desolation in one of those time period references, is all just a coincidence.
Related to this is another view that there is a gap, but the gap is in the middle of the 70th week, not between the last two weeks. That Jesus on the Cross marks the mid-Way point of the 70th Week, not the end of the 69th as a plain reading implies.
They wouldn't consider what I pointed out above a coincidence. But they view the first half as having nothing to do with Revelation, and so would agree that all references to 3.5 years in Revelation are about the same time period. There is no coming seven year period.
Problem is, the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 and 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 can't be the same time period. In the former Israel controls The Temple, the Gentiles only have the Outer Court, but in the Latter they're hiding in The Wilderness.
There are two ways they would respond to this argument of mine.
Some would allegories 11:2, the Temple and Holy City there is The Church, not Jerusalem. And the Outer Court being Trodden Under Foot refers to either 1. Persecution, or 2. fake Christians within the Church. They argue this Holy City can't be the Same as terrestrial Jerusalem described latter as "Spiritually Sodom and Egypt". But that is always the nature of Jerusalem in the Old Testament. She constantly falls into a Sinful State , but God never ceases considering her his Holy City.
The alternative is to reject the The Woman being Israel, or at least National Israel, bringing replacement theology into it. Saying she's The Church, or part of The Church. Or keeping her as National Israel but only the believing Remnant. Such views convolute things too much.
So yes, a Seven Year time peirod can be demonstrated from Revelation alone, without turning to Daniel.
I believe Revelation 11's 3.5 year references are the first half of the 70th Week. The Seventh Trumpet marks the midway point and The Rapture, and then the 3.5 year references in Revelation 12 and 13 are the second half.
I've elaborated on this here.
Thursday, September 18, 2014
The Pre-Wrath View
The Pre-Wrath View is the most frustrating to deal with, I hate saying that because I love Pre-Wrath believers as much as all fellow believers, in fact all people, period. But I've frankly come to consider it the least likely of the the 4 major views to be correct.
You would think a view that places The Rapture somewhere between the beginning and end of The Seventieth Week would be very akin to Mid-Trib/Mid-Seventieth Week. And Indeed some annoying Pre and Post Tirbbers who haven't studied Pre-Wrath at all just use the terms as synonymous.
But in fact the unique way they convolute things makes them share some of the most frustrating aspects of both Pre-Trib and Post-Trib.
Like Pre-Tribbers they insist on building doctrine on an idea that exactly when on God's Timeline The Parusia happens can't be known. Based on the same flawed understanding of one key line of the Olivte Discourse. And they share Pre-Tribber hatred of seeing the Rapture in the same parts of Revelation itself that Mid-Tribbers see it (Post-Tribbers see it in the same verses, but garble the chronology)
Like Post-Tribbers they insist that those Marytred by The beast are part of The Church, even though that idea I consider Biblically refutable. And like them they insist all 3.5 year references in Revelation are to the second half. And they think they don't garble the Chronology of Revelation like Post-Tirbbers, but they do, just differently. Because a plain reading of Revelation places the 7th Trumpet in the middle of the 7 year period.
And like both, they want to expand the definition of Wrath to be all of Revelation's divine Judgments, not just the Seven Bowls.
But even though it's the least likely view to be true, It takes the most effort to refute because it's founded on a number of linked flawed assumption. And whenever I make my argument against one of those flawed assumptions to one of them, they just cite their other flawed assumptions as backing their view up. While Pre-Trib and Post-Trib are each founded on just one or two basic doctrinal fallacies that I can easily shoot down.
I've talked about the Sixth Seal and Joel before. I argued why their argued parallels between Matthew 24:29 (and it's parallels in the other Olivte Discourses) are not as strong as they think. But even if they were, these natural Disaster/Cosmic Signs aspect are only one aspect, and the least universal aspect. Outside Revelation only The Olivte Discourse links these kinds of signs with The Rapture. But that's what they consider definitive to how to locate the Rapture in Revelation.
Meanwhile, Jesus Coming on a cloud or in the clouds is part of all three Olivte Discourses, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (In Revelation this happens in chapter 14. The Gathering of the Saints is in Matthew and Mark's Olivte Discourses and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, and what I consider the best Old Testament Rapture reference in Joel 2:15-16. The Resurrection of the Saints is in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, and the most Popular Old Testament Rapture reference in Isaiah 26. None of those happen in the 6th Seal of Revelation 7.
But really, the most nearly universal aspect is a Trumpet being Sounded. It's in Joel 2:15, Matthew 24:30 (but left out the other 2 Olivite Discourses), 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. And I think the Trumpet reference in Hebrews 12:19 is arguably linked too, I'm still studying that.
And the Seventh Trumpet does also have an Earthquake, Lighting, and Cosmic Signs.
Yet Pre-Tribbers and Pre-Wrathers have such an aversion to seeing a possible connection between the the Trumpets of Revelation and earlier Trumpet references in Scripture. Even though Revelation is all about finally explaining what was a mystery in The Bible before.
Their other key assumptions about "Great Tribulation" and Wrath I have dealt with elsewhere.
You would think a view that places The Rapture somewhere between the beginning and end of The Seventieth Week would be very akin to Mid-Trib/Mid-Seventieth Week. And Indeed some annoying Pre and Post Tirbbers who haven't studied Pre-Wrath at all just use the terms as synonymous.
But in fact the unique way they convolute things makes them share some of the most frustrating aspects of both Pre-Trib and Post-Trib.
Like Pre-Tribbers they insist on building doctrine on an idea that exactly when on God's Timeline The Parusia happens can't be known. Based on the same flawed understanding of one key line of the Olivte Discourse. And they share Pre-Tribber hatred of seeing the Rapture in the same parts of Revelation itself that Mid-Tribbers see it (Post-Tribbers see it in the same verses, but garble the chronology)
Like Post-Tribbers they insist that those Marytred by The beast are part of The Church, even though that idea I consider Biblically refutable. And like them they insist all 3.5 year references in Revelation are to the second half. And they think they don't garble the Chronology of Revelation like Post-Tirbbers, but they do, just differently. Because a plain reading of Revelation places the 7th Trumpet in the middle of the 7 year period.
And like both, they want to expand the definition of Wrath to be all of Revelation's divine Judgments, not just the Seven Bowls.
But even though it's the least likely view to be true, It takes the most effort to refute because it's founded on a number of linked flawed assumption. And whenever I make my argument against one of those flawed assumptions to one of them, they just cite their other flawed assumptions as backing their view up. While Pre-Trib and Post-Trib are each founded on just one or two basic doctrinal fallacies that I can easily shoot down.
I've talked about the Sixth Seal and Joel before. I argued why their argued parallels between Matthew 24:29 (and it's parallels in the other Olivte Discourses) are not as strong as they think. But even if they were, these natural Disaster/Cosmic Signs aspect are only one aspect, and the least universal aspect. Outside Revelation only The Olivte Discourse links these kinds of signs with The Rapture. But that's what they consider definitive to how to locate the Rapture in Revelation.
Meanwhile, Jesus Coming on a cloud or in the clouds is part of all three Olivte Discourses, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (In Revelation this happens in chapter 14. The Gathering of the Saints is in Matthew and Mark's Olivte Discourses and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, and what I consider the best Old Testament Rapture reference in Joel 2:15-16. The Resurrection of the Saints is in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, and the most Popular Old Testament Rapture reference in Isaiah 26. None of those happen in the 6th Seal of Revelation 7.
But really, the most nearly universal aspect is a Trumpet being Sounded. It's in Joel 2:15, Matthew 24:30 (but left out the other 2 Olivite Discourses), 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. And I think the Trumpet reference in Hebrews 12:19 is arguably linked too, I'm still studying that.
And the Seventh Trumpet does also have an Earthquake, Lighting, and Cosmic Signs.
Yet Pre-Tribbers and Pre-Wrathers have such an aversion to seeing a possible connection between the the Trumpets of Revelation and earlier Trumpet references in Scripture. Even though Revelation is all about finally explaining what was a mystery in The Bible before.
Their other key assumptions about "Great Tribulation" and Wrath I have dealt with elsewhere.
Wednesday, September 17, 2014
Conjecturing on a possible secondary Astronomical significance to Revelation 12.
First and Foremost Revelation 12 is a symbolic summery of all History, where The Woman is Israel, the Man Child is Jesus and/or The Church, and The Dragon is Satan. And the third of the stars The Dragon caused to fall to The Earth I don't think accounts for all Fallen Angels, but specifically those from Genesis 6. Because the Angels fighting with The Dragon latter haven't fallen form Heaven yet, they're still up there with the Dragon.
But it's also possible, When John Says he saw a Wonder in heaven, that it could be referring to signs seen in the Heavens at this time. The Greek Texts has no Chapter breaks, this is still the outcome of the Seventh Trumpet.
Kai (Strong# 2532) the Greek for "and" used at the start of Verse one, can also mean "also", even" "then" and so on. This is a Wonder seen right after or during all the events of the Seventh Trumpet.
I'm well aware there are a lot of dangerous ideas linked to the Mazzaroth and Gospel in The Stars theories. But I still think they're worthy of study. And I think Jupiter's conjunction with Regulus on September 11th 3 B.C. was the Star of Bethlehem.
Thing is, unlike a lot of people delving into the possible Astronomical implications of Revelation 12, I don't think there is anything here sufficient to tell us what year it happens, just the time of year.
First question, why choose Virgo for The Woman? Yes being a Virgin fits other Biblical themes but Revelation 12 itself uses no word for Virgin, and there are other Constellation that are represented as female personages.
The main reason is that Virgo is the only female one that is part of the Zodiac, so only she can have the Sun and Moon pass through her, that is what makes the Zodiac Constellations different from the others, they're the ones the Sun, Moon and Planets pass through.
The Sun and Moon both being in some way in the same constellation means it's an event on or near a New Moon, because the New Moon is when the Moon is as close as it gets that monthly cycle to The Sun, that is why Solar Eclipses always happen on New Moons. Virgo is the longest Constellation, so generally two New Moons happen in Virgo every year. The Moon being specifically under Virgo's Feet places it right at the end of the Moon's travel through Virgo, so generally 1 or 2, or maybe 3 days after the New Moon.
Almost always, the New Moon of Tishri (The Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah) occurs while they are in Virgo. That fits with this following the Seventh Trumpet, because the First of Tishri is also affiliated with the Last Trump.
A day or two after the First of Tishri is interesting, this could be Tzom Gedalya, the Third of Tishri. One of Four major Fast Days of the Jewish Calendar. Zachariah 8:18-19 foretells that all four major Fast Days will become Joyous celebrations. Maybe one of those will be the day of The Rapture. Tishri is in the Seventh Month here, because God uses the Holy Calendar which begins with Nisan.
You may be thinking, "Virgo isn't even visible in the Night Sky when the Sun is in her". Normally yes, but if we're at the time of the Rapture for this particular New Moon or soon after, Jesus said in Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:". Contrary to Pre-Wrath conjecture this is incompatible with the Sixth Seal. But Stars fall from Heaven in Revelation 12 as well. And if the Sun and Moon are darkened, then perhaps unlike normal circumstances the Constellations will be visible during Daytime hours.
Full Moons, as an interesting side note, are the opposite, they are when the Moon is farthest from the Sun, the other side of the Earth. Why Lunar Eclipses are always on Full Moons. The Full Moon that begins Tabernacles in Tishri generally happens while the Sun is in Virgo and the Moon in Aries, The Ram. The Full Moon linked to Passover is while the Sun is in Aries and the Moon in Virgo, usually under her Feet. I looked and the Passover of 30 AD when I believe the Crucifixion happened is no exception. Rams are a Levitically clean animal, used in Temple Sacrifices. They're related to Lambs, and I bet some less well known forms of the Zodiac have used a Lamb instead of a Ram for that Constellation. So it's an interesting one to be linked to Passover.
Now one thing considered necessary to narrow this down is one of the Planets being in her (usually Jupiter is the favored one) and probably about to leave. To represent the Man Child in her Womb. But this isn't really rare at all, a planet (sometimes more then one) is almost always there when this happens. This years (2014) Yom Teruah (which begins at Sunset September 24th), Mercury and Venus will both be there. Venus will go through it rather quickly, Mercury will stay awhile.
Jupiter is favored because it's the Planet of Kingship. The star that was in Conjunction with Regulus of Leo to be the Star of Bethlehem in one popular theory. And it usually spends 9 months to a year in roughly the womb area of Virgo, depending on how you define when it enters and exits. But Jupiter leaves Virgo every 12 years. A lot of attention is paid to when Jupiter will leave Virgo in September of 2017. But it will happen again 12 years later, only lacking certain details of the 2017 event deemed important by it's proponents, mainly Leo having 3 extra stars.
Leo is directly above the head of Virgo, and linked to Royalty. But is today viewed as a 9 star Constellation, so the assumption tends to be that you need to add 3 planets to make it fit being Virgos 12 star Crown. The overlooked historical detail is that Coma Berneicis was part of Leo in Ancient Times. Though it was already refereed to sometimes as a distinct sub portion of the Constellation, like Orion's Belt, it was not separated from Leo until Renaissance times.
The Coma is 3 stars as defined by Ptolemy. One of it's stars is even named Diadem, meaning Crown. So in Fact Virgo's 12 Star Crown is always there, you don't need any other more distinct event.
As attractive as the September 2017 event may look. I view The Seventh Trumpet as the middle of the 70th week. And I believe The 70th Week can't begin until The Temple is fully reconstructed. So it's too late now. Still I will pay attention as we approach that date, I'm prepared to be wrong.
October 9th/10th 2029 fits equally as many valid qualifications. I don't want to Date set on it either, but what's interesting is it's during the time when we will be living exactly 2000 years since the roughly year long ministry of Jesus Christ. The Tishri of 2029 will be the 2000 year anniversary of John 7.
Thing is, I don't think Jupiter or any Star being in Virgo is required at all to fit what this describes. The Man Child I don't think needs to be represented specifically by an astronomical object. It's simply that from the Christian view of the stars, the Woman is always inherently pregnant with The Man Child. In most views of the Mazzaroth, Spica is the Seed of The Woman.
So as I said before, these signs tell us the time of year, but not what year. Once The Week begins we'll be able to calculate what year, but not yet.
Update September 26th 2015: My thoughts have Revelation 12 have been adjusted quite a bit. Read this.
But it's also possible, When John Says he saw a Wonder in heaven, that it could be referring to signs seen in the Heavens at this time. The Greek Texts has no Chapter breaks, this is still the outcome of the Seventh Trumpet.
Kai (Strong# 2532) the Greek for "and" used at the start of Verse one, can also mean "also", even" "then" and so on. This is a Wonder seen right after or during all the events of the Seventh Trumpet.
I'm well aware there are a lot of dangerous ideas linked to the Mazzaroth and Gospel in The Stars theories. But I still think they're worthy of study. And I think Jupiter's conjunction with Regulus on September 11th 3 B.C. was the Star of Bethlehem.
Thing is, unlike a lot of people delving into the possible Astronomical implications of Revelation 12, I don't think there is anything here sufficient to tell us what year it happens, just the time of year.
First question, why choose Virgo for The Woman? Yes being a Virgin fits other Biblical themes but Revelation 12 itself uses no word for Virgin, and there are other Constellation that are represented as female personages.
The main reason is that Virgo is the only female one that is part of the Zodiac, so only she can have the Sun and Moon pass through her, that is what makes the Zodiac Constellations different from the others, they're the ones the Sun, Moon and Planets pass through.
The Sun and Moon both being in some way in the same constellation means it's an event on or near a New Moon, because the New Moon is when the Moon is as close as it gets that monthly cycle to The Sun, that is why Solar Eclipses always happen on New Moons. Virgo is the longest Constellation, so generally two New Moons happen in Virgo every year. The Moon being specifically under Virgo's Feet places it right at the end of the Moon's travel through Virgo, so generally 1 or 2, or maybe 3 days after the New Moon.
Almost always, the New Moon of Tishri (The Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah) occurs while they are in Virgo. That fits with this following the Seventh Trumpet, because the First of Tishri is also affiliated with the Last Trump.
A day or two after the First of Tishri is interesting, this could be Tzom Gedalya, the Third of Tishri. One of Four major Fast Days of the Jewish Calendar. Zachariah 8:18-19 foretells that all four major Fast Days will become Joyous celebrations. Maybe one of those will be the day of The Rapture. Tishri is in the Seventh Month here, because God uses the Holy Calendar which begins with Nisan.
You may be thinking, "Virgo isn't even visible in the Night Sky when the Sun is in her". Normally yes, but if we're at the time of the Rapture for this particular New Moon or soon after, Jesus said in Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:". Contrary to Pre-Wrath conjecture this is incompatible with the Sixth Seal. But Stars fall from Heaven in Revelation 12 as well. And if the Sun and Moon are darkened, then perhaps unlike normal circumstances the Constellations will be visible during Daytime hours.
Full Moons, as an interesting side note, are the opposite, they are when the Moon is farthest from the Sun, the other side of the Earth. Why Lunar Eclipses are always on Full Moons. The Full Moon that begins Tabernacles in Tishri generally happens while the Sun is in Virgo and the Moon in Aries, The Ram. The Full Moon linked to Passover is while the Sun is in Aries and the Moon in Virgo, usually under her Feet. I looked and the Passover of 30 AD when I believe the Crucifixion happened is no exception. Rams are a Levitically clean animal, used in Temple Sacrifices. They're related to Lambs, and I bet some less well known forms of the Zodiac have used a Lamb instead of a Ram for that Constellation. So it's an interesting one to be linked to Passover.
Now one thing considered necessary to narrow this down is one of the Planets being in her (usually Jupiter is the favored one) and probably about to leave. To represent the Man Child in her Womb. But this isn't really rare at all, a planet (sometimes more then one) is almost always there when this happens. This years (2014) Yom Teruah (which begins at Sunset September 24th), Mercury and Venus will both be there. Venus will go through it rather quickly, Mercury will stay awhile.
Jupiter is favored because it's the Planet of Kingship. The star that was in Conjunction with Regulus of Leo to be the Star of Bethlehem in one popular theory. And it usually spends 9 months to a year in roughly the womb area of Virgo, depending on how you define when it enters and exits. But Jupiter leaves Virgo every 12 years. A lot of attention is paid to when Jupiter will leave Virgo in September of 2017. But it will happen again 12 years later, only lacking certain details of the 2017 event deemed important by it's proponents, mainly Leo having 3 extra stars.
Leo is directly above the head of Virgo, and linked to Royalty. But is today viewed as a 9 star Constellation, so the assumption tends to be that you need to add 3 planets to make it fit being Virgos 12 star Crown. The overlooked historical detail is that Coma Berneicis was part of Leo in Ancient Times. Though it was already refereed to sometimes as a distinct sub portion of the Constellation, like Orion's Belt, it was not separated from Leo until Renaissance times.
The Coma is 3 stars as defined by Ptolemy. One of it's stars is even named Diadem, meaning Crown. So in Fact Virgo's 12 Star Crown is always there, you don't need any other more distinct event.
As attractive as the September 2017 event may look. I view The Seventh Trumpet as the middle of the 70th week. And I believe The 70th Week can't begin until The Temple is fully reconstructed. So it's too late now. Still I will pay attention as we approach that date, I'm prepared to be wrong.
October 9th/10th 2029 fits equally as many valid qualifications. I don't want to Date set on it either, but what's interesting is it's during the time when we will be living exactly 2000 years since the roughly year long ministry of Jesus Christ. The Tishri of 2029 will be the 2000 year anniversary of John 7.
Thing is, I don't think Jupiter or any Star being in Virgo is required at all to fit what this describes. The Man Child I don't think needs to be represented specifically by an astronomical object. It's simply that from the Christian view of the stars, the Woman is always inherently pregnant with The Man Child. In most views of the Mazzaroth, Spica is the Seed of The Woman.
So as I said before, these signs tell us the time of year, but not what year. Once The Week begins we'll be able to calculate what year, but not yet.
Update September 26th 2015: My thoughts have Revelation 12 have been adjusted quite a bit. Read this.
Tuesday, September 16, 2014
Two Comings per Advent
One thing all Futurist views on The Rapture besides Post-Trib have in common is believing When Jesus Comes in the Clouds (commonly called The Rapture) and when he comes on a White Horse in Revelation 19 and Isaiah 63 are two separate Comings.
That is why Post-Tribbers often define themselves as not believing in The Rapture at all,. What they really mean is not believing in it as a separate event. They may also nit-pick about the word not being Biblical, but that's for another study.
That's key to how we're often made fun of in Post-Trib circles, saying we believe in Two Second Comings, or that Revelation 19 is really the Third Coming.
I believe there are only two Messianic Advents, the Advent of the Suffering Servant, and the Advent of the Lion of Judah. But something Post-Tribbers should keep in mind next time they want to mock us for believing in "Two Second Comings", is that the First Advent had two Comings as well.
The actual Physical Incarnation, which we celebrate on December 24-25th but I believe actually happened on the First of Tishri which fell on the 11th of September 3 B.C. However I do believe it was probably during Chanukah he was conceived (The Annunciation and the Visitation), as well as the day the Magi presented their Gifts.
And The Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, commemorated on Palm Sunday, which occurred on the 10th of Nisan of 30 A.D.
You may be thinking, "those aren't separate comings at all". They are indeed different from how the two future Comings dispensationalists believe in relate to each other, but that's natural, the Second Advent will be different from the First. "But He didn't leave the Earth and Return to Heaven between those two events." That's besides the point.
The Point is, even though The Triumphal Entry wasn't even the first time Jesus entered Jerusalem, (we know from Luke 2 and Johns' Gospels he always pilgrimaged there on the major feast days since he was 12 as The Law required).
But that is the day Jesus Judged the people for not successfully Date Setting in Luke 19:41-44. That's the day he entered Jerusalem in exactly the conditions foretold in Zachariah 9:9, with the people singing Psalm 118, in the Nisan pointed to by the 70 Weeks Prophecy , on the 10th of Nisan when the Passover Lamb is presented before being slain on the 14th. No fulfillment of Messianic Prophecy was or will be more precise.
In the interest of comparing the First Advent to the Second. I think the Triumphal Entry can be viewed as a Type of when he comes Riding on a White Horse. That is when he will do what the people wanted him to do the first time (Liberate Israel from Roman Oppression). And Because I think the 70th week will be fulfilled in Nisan years just as the first 69 were, I think it could well happen on the same day.
Therefore I think the the Nativity Narrative is perhaps a Type of the Coming in the Clouds. That is an odd comparison to make. But I've argued elsewhere independent reasons for seeing the Mid-70th Week Rapture as linked to the Fall Feasts. Of course my reasons for placing the Nativity on the First of Tishri aren't directly Biblical, but I feel are Biblically backed.
Revelation 12 is a symbolic summery of History, the first five verses of which are already in the past. But perhaps it also correlates to signs seen in the Heavens at this time, the signs seen on September 11th 3 B.C. do have a a parallel to Revelation 21. And Luke 21:25 refers to "signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars" the Pre-Wrath assumption about that I consider flawed. And I've talked about the reasons for possibly seeing The Rapture here. Remember, the Chapter divisions aren't in the original text, the Vision in Revelation 12 could therefore be argued to still be part of the 7th Trumpet.
You may think I'm starting to learn towards the September 23rd 2017 AD date Popular on YouTube. But I take issue with that since at this point it'd require us to already be in The 70th Week. Which I don't think we can be in since The Temple isn't standing yet. It's mostly Pre-Tribbers promoting that date. The idea that there is something astronomical as an additional layer of meaning to Revelation 12 is worth looking into. But one must never forget that first and foremost The Woman is Israel.
The fact is however, the term "Second Coming" isn't Biblical, it's just his Coming. So don't build doctrine on numbers games. His first coming was a more then one day event, so will the second be.
Update: I now have changed my mind as Jesus birth-date, and think contrary to modern trendy opinion He was born on December 25th. Doesn't change the overall point of this post, only effects the same day typology. The Tishri Holy Days still have possible relevance to the first advent. The event that chronology begins the Gospel narrative, Zachariaz in the Holy Place, I now place near maybe even on Yom Kippur. Also you'll notice that in John 7, it's during the middle of the Feast of Tabernacles He appears unexpectedly.
That is why Post-Tribbers often define themselves as not believing in The Rapture at all,. What they really mean is not believing in it as a separate event. They may also nit-pick about the word not being Biblical, but that's for another study.
That's key to how we're often made fun of in Post-Trib circles, saying we believe in Two Second Comings, or that Revelation 19 is really the Third Coming.
I believe there are only two Messianic Advents, the Advent of the Suffering Servant, and the Advent of the Lion of Judah. But something Post-Tribbers should keep in mind next time they want to mock us for believing in "Two Second Comings", is that the First Advent had two Comings as well.
The actual Physical Incarnation, which we celebrate on December 24-25th but I believe actually happened on the First of Tishri which fell on the 11th of September 3 B.C. However I do believe it was probably during Chanukah he was conceived (The Annunciation and the Visitation), as well as the day the Magi presented their Gifts.
And The Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, commemorated on Palm Sunday, which occurred on the 10th of Nisan of 30 A.D.
You may be thinking, "those aren't separate comings at all". They are indeed different from how the two future Comings dispensationalists believe in relate to each other, but that's natural, the Second Advent will be different from the First. "But He didn't leave the Earth and Return to Heaven between those two events." That's besides the point.
The Point is, even though The Triumphal Entry wasn't even the first time Jesus entered Jerusalem, (we know from Luke 2 and Johns' Gospels he always pilgrimaged there on the major feast days since he was 12 as The Law required).
But that is the day Jesus Judged the people for not successfully Date Setting in Luke 19:41-44. That's the day he entered Jerusalem in exactly the conditions foretold in Zachariah 9:9, with the people singing Psalm 118, in the Nisan pointed to by the 70 Weeks Prophecy , on the 10th of Nisan when the Passover Lamb is presented before being slain on the 14th. No fulfillment of Messianic Prophecy was or will be more precise.
In the interest of comparing the First Advent to the Second. I think the Triumphal Entry can be viewed as a Type of when he comes Riding on a White Horse. That is when he will do what the people wanted him to do the first time (Liberate Israel from Roman Oppression). And Because I think the 70th week will be fulfilled in Nisan years just as the first 69 were, I think it could well happen on the same day.
Therefore I think the the Nativity Narrative is perhaps a Type of the Coming in the Clouds. That is an odd comparison to make. But I've argued elsewhere independent reasons for seeing the Mid-70th Week Rapture as linked to the Fall Feasts. Of course my reasons for placing the Nativity on the First of Tishri aren't directly Biblical, but I feel are Biblically backed.
Revelation 12 is a symbolic summery of History, the first five verses of which are already in the past. But perhaps it also correlates to signs seen in the Heavens at this time, the signs seen on September 11th 3 B.C. do have a a parallel to Revelation 21. And Luke 21:25 refers to "signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars" the Pre-Wrath assumption about that I consider flawed. And I've talked about the reasons for possibly seeing The Rapture here. Remember, the Chapter divisions aren't in the original text, the Vision in Revelation 12 could therefore be argued to still be part of the 7th Trumpet.
You may think I'm starting to learn towards the September 23rd 2017 AD date Popular on YouTube. But I take issue with that since at this point it'd require us to already be in The 70th Week. Which I don't think we can be in since The Temple isn't standing yet. It's mostly Pre-Tribbers promoting that date. The idea that there is something astronomical as an additional layer of meaning to Revelation 12 is worth looking into. But one must never forget that first and foremost The Woman is Israel.
The fact is however, the term "Second Coming" isn't Biblical, it's just his Coming. So don't build doctrine on numbers games. His first coming was a more then one day event, so will the second be.
Update: I now have changed my mind as Jesus birth-date, and think contrary to modern trendy opinion He was born on December 25th. Doesn't change the overall point of this post, only effects the same day typology. The Tishri Holy Days still have possible relevance to the first advent. The event that chronology begins the Gospel narrative, Zachariaz in the Holy Place, I now place near maybe even on Yom Kippur. Also you'll notice that in John 7, it's during the middle of the Feast of Tabernacles He appears unexpectedly.
Monday, September 8, 2014
The Partial Rapture Theory
All of my previous posts addressing Rapture views I disagree with have been focused on the main three popular views, Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath.
The Partial Rapture Theory isn't really a matter of timing, it can overlap with any of the other views. It is sometimes linked to an idea that more then one Rapture will occur and thus they might all be right. Some people believing a from of this I know are mainly Mid-Trib in their timing, so I feel the need to make sure people know this isn't a view I agree with.
The Partial Rapture Theory is that not all of the Saved alive on Earth at the time are Raptured at the Rapture, or at least not the first Rapture. Only those who are the most Obedient and Faithful.
My views on Soterology and Ecclesiology could be viewed as lending themselves to this view. I believe firmly in Eternal Security, yet I disagree with Calvinists and others who say they believe in Eternal Security but then turn around and say "if you are really saved you won't ______" whatever their line is.
I believe that like the Prodigal Son a Believer can squander their Inheritance but will never lose their Sonship. I recommend Chuck Missler's studies on Eternal Security, including Hebrews 6. Though I disagree with him on a few verses concerning Predestination where he sounds like he unwittingly agrees with the Calvinist view, but those are minor.
When Jesus in Matthew refers to the "Outer Darkness" that's not Hell. Revelation 21:25-27 tells us that not everyone living in the New Heaven and New Earth will be in New Jerusalem. And that some won't be allowed to enter it. That's the "Outer Darkness" Jesus was referring to (because the context was clearly describing saved individuals, only the Saved are his servants), being outside New Jerusalem.
So some people when responding to certain views on Rewards tie in a disapproval of any notions that all Christians aren't equal at the Bema Judgment. I believe we should not be Judging each other during our life on Earth, but it's clear in Eternity there will be distinctions.
BUT, that differentiation happens at the Bema Seat Judgment, and thus after The Rapture. So it does not exclude anyone from The Rapture. We are during our life on this Earth all part of the Body of Christ regardless of our obedience or faithfulness.
Some who agree with my view that the 144,000 are part of The Church and that they are Raptured in Revelation 14, will add that only the 144,000 are Raptured. As I've said in other posts on that subject, they are a specific group that represents the whole.
I've said before that not all saved are part of The Church. A related question to that however is, are all saved during the Church Age part of The Church? While we're alive, yes. I believe we're all The Body of Christ. But after the Bema Seat Judgment, I do think it's possible some of us will lose our opportunity to be the Bride of Christ.
The Ten Virgins Parable of Matthew 15:1-13 is one Bible passage that could be used to support a Partial Rapture. Actually the way Partial Rapture supporters interpret this is kind of the natural conclusion of the way Pre-Tribbers use it. (That the Five Virgins taken represent those who hold the Pre-Trib view, and others those who do not). Problem is, what Jesus tells the Foolish Virgins "I know you not" is how other Eschatological passages from Jesus define the unsaved. Yet Pre-Tribbers don't usually want to say they think your not saved if your not Pre-Trib, but that seems to be the implication of their attitude sometimes.
Pre-Tribbers often forget that parables are not always what they seem.
I don't think this Parable is about the timing of the Rapture, or that the difference between the groups has anything to do with their theory on it's timing being correct or not. Christ's offer to be his Bride is extended to all Humanity, but only the Saved are prepared to be ready to accept it when he comes. Because the Saved have the Light of the World in us, our Lamps won't go out.
The Letters to the Seven Churches can also be used by Partial Rapture theorists. Mainly the messages to Thyatira and Philadelphia. Where certain statements make it seem like the former is told they will go into the "Tribulation Period" and the latter they will not.
To Thyatira he says of "Jezebel" and those committing Whoredom with her "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." Thing is, in my Great Tribulation study I show that it isn't a specific time period at all, it refers to all Persecution the Church has faced.
To Philadelphia he says "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." This is often used against Post-Trib in general. One Question is, if this is about the Rapture, does it being only in Philadelphia's message mean it applies only to Philadelphian Christians? The Promise for the Believer parts of the other Letters seem to embody many things characteristic of all Believers, so no I don't think so.
But also it this really Rapture relevant?
This Verse doesn't use Wrath or Tribulatio, or Day of The LORD. It says Hour of Temptation. I'm reminded of how in the Lord's Prayer, we're instructed to pray that we are lead not into Temptation and delivered from Evil. And in Matthew 24:24 Jesus says "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The key complication is that it isn't possible. I don't think this means we're immune to being tricked in general. But once the Abomination of Desolation happens, things will be crystal clear to those with the Holy Spirit.
So neither of those two passages from the letters to the Churches I view definitively as Rapture relevant.
The Partial Rapture Theory isn't really a matter of timing, it can overlap with any of the other views. It is sometimes linked to an idea that more then one Rapture will occur and thus they might all be right. Some people believing a from of this I know are mainly Mid-Trib in their timing, so I feel the need to make sure people know this isn't a view I agree with.
The Partial Rapture Theory is that not all of the Saved alive on Earth at the time are Raptured at the Rapture, or at least not the first Rapture. Only those who are the most Obedient and Faithful.
My views on Soterology and Ecclesiology could be viewed as lending themselves to this view. I believe firmly in Eternal Security, yet I disagree with Calvinists and others who say they believe in Eternal Security but then turn around and say "if you are really saved you won't ______" whatever their line is.
I believe that like the Prodigal Son a Believer can squander their Inheritance but will never lose their Sonship. I recommend Chuck Missler's studies on Eternal Security, including Hebrews 6. Though I disagree with him on a few verses concerning Predestination where he sounds like he unwittingly agrees with the Calvinist view, but those are minor.
When Jesus in Matthew refers to the "Outer Darkness" that's not Hell. Revelation 21:25-27 tells us that not everyone living in the New Heaven and New Earth will be in New Jerusalem. And that some won't be allowed to enter it. That's the "Outer Darkness" Jesus was referring to (because the context was clearly describing saved individuals, only the Saved are his servants), being outside New Jerusalem.
So some people when responding to certain views on Rewards tie in a disapproval of any notions that all Christians aren't equal at the Bema Judgment. I believe we should not be Judging each other during our life on Earth, but it's clear in Eternity there will be distinctions.
BUT, that differentiation happens at the Bema Seat Judgment, and thus after The Rapture. So it does not exclude anyone from The Rapture. We are during our life on this Earth all part of the Body of Christ regardless of our obedience or faithfulness.
Some who agree with my view that the 144,000 are part of The Church and that they are Raptured in Revelation 14, will add that only the 144,000 are Raptured. As I've said in other posts on that subject, they are a specific group that represents the whole.
I've said before that not all saved are part of The Church. A related question to that however is, are all saved during the Church Age part of The Church? While we're alive, yes. I believe we're all The Body of Christ. But after the Bema Seat Judgment, I do think it's possible some of us will lose our opportunity to be the Bride of Christ.
The Ten Virgins Parable of Matthew 15:1-13 is one Bible passage that could be used to support a Partial Rapture. Actually the way Partial Rapture supporters interpret this is kind of the natural conclusion of the way Pre-Tribbers use it. (That the Five Virgins taken represent those who hold the Pre-Trib view, and others those who do not). Problem is, what Jesus tells the Foolish Virgins "I know you not" is how other Eschatological passages from Jesus define the unsaved. Yet Pre-Tribbers don't usually want to say they think your not saved if your not Pre-Trib, but that seems to be the implication of their attitude sometimes.
Pre-Tribbers often forget that parables are not always what they seem.
I don't think this Parable is about the timing of the Rapture, or that the difference between the groups has anything to do with their theory on it's timing being correct or not. Christ's offer to be his Bride is extended to all Humanity, but only the Saved are prepared to be ready to accept it when he comes. Because the Saved have the Light of the World in us, our Lamps won't go out.
The Letters to the Seven Churches can also be used by Partial Rapture theorists. Mainly the messages to Thyatira and Philadelphia. Where certain statements make it seem like the former is told they will go into the "Tribulation Period" and the latter they will not.
To Thyatira he says of "Jezebel" and those committing Whoredom with her "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." Thing is, in my Great Tribulation study I show that it isn't a specific time period at all, it refers to all Persecution the Church has faced.
To Philadelphia he says "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." This is often used against Post-Trib in general. One Question is, if this is about the Rapture, does it being only in Philadelphia's message mean it applies only to Philadelphian Christians? The Promise for the Believer parts of the other Letters seem to embody many things characteristic of all Believers, so no I don't think so.
But also it this really Rapture relevant?
This Verse doesn't use Wrath or Tribulatio, or Day of The LORD. It says Hour of Temptation. I'm reminded of how in the Lord's Prayer, we're instructed to pray that we are lead not into Temptation and delivered from Evil. And in Matthew 24:24 Jesus says "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The key complication is that it isn't possible. I don't think this means we're immune to being tricked in general. But once the Abomination of Desolation happens, things will be crystal clear to those with the Holy Spirit.
So neither of those two passages from the letters to the Churches I view definitively as Rapture relevant.
Thursday, August 28, 2014
It is OK for a Dispensationalsit to be critical of Israel.
I saw someone make a blog posts a few weeks ago trying to explain reason a Christian should be Pro-Israel even if their not Dipsensaitonalist.
I am a Supporter of Israel's right to their Land. But I feel like saying that you can believe God's Covenant with the Nation of Israel still stands and admit modern Israel's government can be corrupt.
Now as a Libertarian I feel to an extent that Americans shouldn't be criticizing other Governments at all. We should worry about our own Nation which is very evil right now and has been for decades, the Party doesn't matter.
What really bugs me however is seeing Jews including Israelis, who criticize the Israeli Government or show sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, being written off as self hating Jews. As a believer in the ideals America's Founding Fathers fought for, I believe the proof of a true Patriot is speaking out against your Government when you feel they've done wrong.
I agree that Romans 11 teaches that Israel shall be Saved as a nation. But we are currently still in the Romans 10 Dispensation, they are currently still Enemies of the Gospel.
Ancient Israel had Evil corrupt Rulers constantly, Modern Israel is certainly going to do better then they did.
I agree there is evidence God supernaturally intervened in the Six Day War on Israel's behalf. But he intervened on Ahab's behalf too. That intervention is because of his Promise to Abraham, but it's not an endorsement of the leadership.
I agree that Satan wants The World to hate Israel. But I also believe one of his tools to make that happen is the Evil with Israels' own Government.
Now you'll never see agree with those who believe Zionism period is Evil. Or endorsing Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories lie the Khazar myth, of Holocaust denial, or the Protocols of Zion hoax, no suggesting Mossad had anything to do with 9/11 (that was all CIA). But Israel's government is just as prone the natural corruption all Governments are prone too. Which can include False Flag Terrorism.
I am a Supporter of Israel's right to their Land. But I feel like saying that you can believe God's Covenant with the Nation of Israel still stands and admit modern Israel's government can be corrupt.
Now as a Libertarian I feel to an extent that Americans shouldn't be criticizing other Governments at all. We should worry about our own Nation which is very evil right now and has been for decades, the Party doesn't matter.
What really bugs me however is seeing Jews including Israelis, who criticize the Israeli Government or show sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, being written off as self hating Jews. As a believer in the ideals America's Founding Fathers fought for, I believe the proof of a true Patriot is speaking out against your Government when you feel they've done wrong.
I agree that Romans 11 teaches that Israel shall be Saved as a nation. But we are currently still in the Romans 10 Dispensation, they are currently still Enemies of the Gospel.
Ancient Israel had Evil corrupt Rulers constantly, Modern Israel is certainly going to do better then they did.
I agree there is evidence God supernaturally intervened in the Six Day War on Israel's behalf. But he intervened on Ahab's behalf too. That intervention is because of his Promise to Abraham, but it's not an endorsement of the leadership.
I agree that Satan wants The World to hate Israel. But I also believe one of his tools to make that happen is the Evil with Israels' own Government.
Now you'll never see agree with those who believe Zionism period is Evil. Or endorsing Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories lie the Khazar myth, of Holocaust denial, or the Protocols of Zion hoax, no suggesting Mossad had anything to do with 9/11 (that was all CIA). But Israel's government is just as prone the natural corruption all Governments are prone too. Which can include False Flag Terrorism.
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